Limitations of Moi3d?
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.1 
New trial user for 2 days, and LOVING it !!!
Amazing product Michael ! Love your simplistic and organized UI !
Overall, new with CAD...and my end goal is designing for CNC, mostly wood and 4th axis indexer work.
I want to start out with the right CAD packages, as the learning curves are so steep....
and as a relative newb (did CAD 30 yrs ago ;)
I was curious, what are some of the obvious limitations of Moi3d? As I read in this forum, obvious one is parametrics would be nice, but as mentioned in this forum, it can be had in other packages if mandatory.... anything else obvious for my type of work?
I assume 2d drawings can be done in Moi as it has nice dim features, right?
If there was a good complimentary CAD to Moi for my work, what would it be? Alibre? (within the hobbyist budget)
Also, best tutorials to learn Moi?
thx all in advance!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10927.2 In reply to 10927.1 
Hi BG welcome to MoI and to the forum!

For tutorials to start with I'd recommend reading the introductory section of the help file:
https://moi3d.com/4.0/docs/moi_introduction.htm

And there are also some video tutorials in the help file as well:
http://moi3d.com/4.0/docs/tutorials.htm

2D shop drawings can be done in MoI by placing in dimensions and then saving to a 2D file format like PDF, AI, or (in v5) SVG. It works well for fairly light duty drawings, if you need to produce detailed drawings you would probably need to do that elsewhere.

Alibre is a good choice for inexpensive parametric CAD.

Whether any of this is a perfect fit for you depends a lot on the specific kind of work you want to do.

If you want to make things like signage with embossing or relief type raised imagery on it then that's difficult to do in CAD and instead a "2.5D" ArtCAM like package could be better.

Since Autodesk purchased and then discontinued ArtCAM you might checkout something from Vectric instead, or
maybe this one which I guess is derived from ArtCAM:
https://fts.gr/carveco/

- Michael
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.3 In reply to 10927.2 
Thank you Michael.... your response puts things in perspective for me. So important when starting out.
Fortunately, the CNC machine I plan to buy (ShopBot) comes with Vectrix, so that solves relief type of work.
For detailed 2d or parametric, it seems Alibre will be a good companion, although I find it so clunky, they need to learn from you!
So for 4th axis indexer, NOT "wrapped" type of work...(helix as a 4D example) Moi seems ideal for this type of design, right? I realize I will need a good CAM program for the 4D, such as Proto as Vectrix only does 2.5D (wrap around), vs. 4D. This is what I have gathered from some of the experienced users. Any additional input would be helpful... thx again...
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10927.4 In reply to 10927.3 
Hi BG,

re:
> So for 4th axis indexer, NOT "wrapped" type of work...(helix as a 4D example) Moi seems ideal for this type of design, right?

Yes it could be good for that.

But are you really planning on cutting a helix shape out of wood on your CNC?

Do you maybe have some example images of the types of things that you would like to make?

If it's all in the category of relief/emboss signage type stuff then you're probably better off doing it all in Vectrix.

Even with MoI that's trying to be easier to use than "regular cad", there is still going to be a pretty noticeable jump in complexity from 2.5D work to full 3D CAD + CAM work.

The more that you can give some more details and examples of actual pieces similar to what you want to make would help to give you better information.

Usually stuff like parametrics are used more for design of mechanical parts.

- Michael
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.5 In reply to 10927.4 
sorry, I should have attached some pix...
Yes, planning on using the 4th axis indexer to make helix type shapes like the attachment.... moreso than doing releif work on the flatbed xyz, which I agree, Vectrix would be fine.... but its not well suited for work like attached... I was advised true 3d cad with Proto CAM will do this? thoughts?


Attachments:

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 From:  Michael Gibson
10927.6 In reply to 10927.5 
Hi BG, thanks the image helps a lot. So yes you do really want to cut a helix on your CNC!

MoI would be very well suited for making the 3D model for that, There's only a few steps really, I don't think you'd gain anything from parametrics in this case. It's simple enough that you could just draw a new one in a few minutes if you wanted to change something.

It's probably all the details that will be involved with the CAM and CNC that will probably be quite difficult.

Maybe it could be easier if you worked with a dedicated CNC lathe rather than an additional indexer?

It also seems like it would be a nightmare to try and cut it all in one piece, I'd think you'd want to cut the center spindle and the helix pieces separately?

The modeling part would go like this:

Draw in a polyline profile curve like this:


Select it and run Construct > Revolve. In the prompt in the upper right corner of the main window, MoI will be
asking for the revolve axis which you'd want to pick along the z axis direction like this:



That will make the main central piece:


For the helix pieces go to Draw curve > More > Helix:


Pick the points for the helix axis along the z axis as well to make a helix curve like this:


Then draw a circle off to the side, select the circle and use Construct > Sweep and pick the helix as the rail path to make a tube
around the helix curve:


Then you'll use Transform > Array > Circular to duplicate the tube.

You'd probably want to extend the helix a little more into the top and bottom than what I've done here.

But constructing the 3D model is going to be by far the easiest part of the whole project I'd think, and MoI would work well for the modeling part.

The fabrication probably wouldn't be so hard if the helix was a negative shape cut into something. But a free-standing helix? Seems very difficult.

- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
10927.7 In reply to 10927.5 
Also you don't want to use as many turns in the helix as I had above.

With the helix being duplicated 4 times around the center point, it will fill in a lot with each individual helix only having about 1.5 turns:







If you have a lot of turns on the helix thinking that it then looks similar to the end result, it will be way too dense when you array it so there's 4 pieces.

- Michael

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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.8 In reply to 10927.7 
Michael, wow, thx sooo much for your added input.
Yes, I always realized this was more of a CAM battle than a CAD battle, although I am not capable of yet of producing the model u provided, so thx for the jump start. I also realize there will be some experimentation in the cutting process for sure.
I am not delusional ;)

More importantly, I am very curious about your comment:
> Maybe it could be easier if you worked with a dedicated CNC lathe rather than an additional indexer?

could u pls elaborate on this? I have been doing my best talking to everyone before committing to the proper hardware and software. I have learned the flatbed xyz work seems to be fully understood by the hardware and software makers, but this type of indexing work knowledge is not commonplace...and the comments I often get...., "not sure, I think, maybe, probably" etc. I realize its a very tiny niche of CNC, so any thoughts on why u mention a dedicated CNC would be appreciated, then I would pursue them.

My thought was, on a flatbed CNC w indexer, I get the benefits of a flatbed cnc, indexer and ATC. vs. a CNC lathe only, which is about the same price with no ATC and no XYZ flatbed capability. But its possible, I am overlooking something....
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 From:  BurrMan
10927.9 In reply to 10927.8 
I think you will stuggke trying to index that type of part. You can think of cutting towards the center to the depth of half of the helix diameter. After that it is undercut city. You can look for a cam program that can 5 axis or “lollypop” but very advanced and will be very hard.

Protocam is 3d printing services. You could model that in MoI in a few minutes and email and have that printed easy.

Using a lathe you could cut the interior, minus the helix, easy. Then attach the helix parts after.
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.10 In reply to 10927.9 
Hi Burr, thx for your response.
seems this is way more difficult than I originally thought.
I would piece meal the parts out as you suggest, but the beauty of these, is the wood itself...
I am not aware of any 3d printers that can replicate wood.
But, nonetheless, a smart approach for a painted version.
Speaking of not getting good answers from makers, I just noticed on the ShopBot web site, they do not even sell the indexer with the ATC Max version... something they prob. overlooked.
Maybe this is why Michael suggested a dedicated cnc lathe, as it might be too complex for an indexer on a flatbed.
Legacy CNC in UT makes a machine that seems to focus on these types of turnings... maybe I should look at their system next... lots of twists n turns here, but better find out now of all the gotcha's up front...

EDITED: 24 Dec 2022 by DOLPHIN

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 From:  Michael Gibson
10927.11 In reply to 10927.8 
Hi BG,

re:
> My thought was, on a flatbed CNC w indexer, I get the benefits of a flatbed cnc, indexer and
> ATC. vs. a CNC lathe only, which is about the same price with no ATC and no XYZ flatbed
> capability. But its possible, I am overlooking something....

I guess my concern is that even though this may be true, it's an overall more complex system with more things to manage while a lathe is purpose built specifically for turned pieces.

Just as a general concept jumping in to a more complex setup right off the bat will likely steepen the learning curve.

- Michael
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 From:  Marbleman
10927.12 
HI BG,

I get involved with all types of work cnc based for others mostly, the majority of my work is done by hand. However I do use and help others with drawing for cnc and do a lot of high level 3dprinting and for this I use 98% MoI, the rest being done in Rhino, 3D Coat and Blender. For upto 3 axis I use MeshCAM($250 for Basic and $500 for pro), for upto 5 axis I would probably look at using MadCAM, as an add on for Rhino. I was talking to them a couple of years ago and they were looking at writing a standalone version to work with MoI, but I don't know if this has happened yet.

Re How you are looking at working I would use a standardised cnc, xyz with a rotary encoder as 4th axis. I had one built for me exactly to this spec a couple of years ago by https://amastone.com/cnc-router-marble-amastone-next/.

If all of your pieces are basically cylindrically based then I would probably look at a cnc lathe as they take top far less space, but you'd probably need something like MadCAM to drive it. https://youtu.be/uPS7fYY8tt0

Hope this helps, get back to me if you need any more info

- James
www.jameselliott.co.uk
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.13 In reply to 10927.11 
Fully agreed...but I was gonna hold off on the indexer purchase till after I mastered the flatbed...
I just wanted to be sure I bought a system that would easily expand into making the Helix....
your idea of a dedicated machine makes sense, but the cost of the dedicated wood CNC lathes seem to cost more than this entire setup, i.e. flatbed, ATC and indexer.... I guess the wood CNC lathes are much lower volume...dunno...
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.14 In reply to 10927.11 
Thx James for your input...
The CNC u referenced seems to be for stone? I am sure it cuts other materials...also from euro, whereas I prefer USA maker for local support. But what you described is what I was pursuing, till I just found this bottleneck with ShopBot ATC MAx with the indexer...hence why next week I will look at Legacy Mills, as they seem to really specialize in the xyz and indexing, even using their own CAM. They show a lot of those Helix's made pretty easy with the CCAM package, quite interesting. They seemed to be advanced in that area.
https://lwmcnc.com/cnc-systems/
I have size limitations as well, so that limits my options as well... I dont plan to cut full size 4x8 sheets.
I will prob. end up 60% on the indexer and 40% on the xyz.
Thx for the tip on MadCAM, never saw that one before.
using xyz and indexer sure complicates the software end (when doing more complex index work)... was hoping to reduce the number of packages I need to buy and learn, but that's might not be possible. A couple of CAD and a couple of CAMs might be whats required...
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 From:  Marbleman
10927.15 In reply to 10927.14 
Amastone, started from a stone background, but my cnc they built for stone, wood and brass. I have found them very helpful. Ias fas as I can tell most of it is down to spindle spec! They made mine in a special size as I only had a narrow place to put it and in Stainless Steel.

I would be interested to see where you end up with what you are doing both machine and software wise...

-James
www.jameselliott.co.uk
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 From:  pior (PIOR_O)
10927.16 
@BG : just so you know, MOI3D is actually incredibly powerful for 2d drafting/drawing. It may not have drawing constraints like regular 2D CAD software, but the speed of use in incredible. It's so powerful in fact that I've personally started to use it for freehand 2d sketch work (as in : with a graphics tablet) besides regular CAD drafting. I do sometimes wish it had proper parametric drawing/history features, but in practice editing is just so fast that it isn't even needed.

It is also way, way more user friendly than regular vector software like Inkscape/Affinity, because it give a much more direct controls on the shape objects. Of course it doesn't have any filling or stroke options, but that's obviously not needed for your CNC use.

I hope this helps.
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 From:  Matadem
10927.17 
Good day.

Before I bought my cnc the top 4 machines I looked at was Avid cnc, Cammaster, Shopsabre and Legacy.

I choose Avid because it was modular (you have to assemble the whole machine except the electronics cabinets).
I knew that I need to move the machine in the future and a forklift will not fit.
I have a 5x10 table with router, plasma, rotary lathe and this week I added a laser as well. I looked into the ATC as well but it is not needed yet and
I rather spend the money elsewhere for now.

I needed to know everything about the machine because if something need to be repaired I need to do it myself and the parts could be bought from a different sources as well.

My advice if you are committed to buying a machine, buy the one you want and need the first time. Also make sure whichever machine you buy has great support ...because you will get stuck at some point.
for me I knew I needed a big table and wanted to add the plasma addition.
but when I bought it I did not buy the plasma electronics and water table. after I had the machine up and running..I bought the plasma addition.
If I bought it the first time It would saved me money on shipping and time installed.

On the software side ...
I use Moi3d probably 90% of the time and the rest would be Vcarve pro. Tried Rhino but I do not need it for now.
Right now Learning Blender and 3dcoat for more artistic stuff (this will take a while). Alibre is on my list to learn parametric and the motion simulation.
Last week I was looking at Meshcam and Deskproto but since Vcarve is doing what I need no need to buy additonal software for now. Vectric software is very nice.

I do not think the model you posted should be a problem for Vectric Aspire or Vcarve Pro but not made in 1 go. (Modeled first in Moi since it's faster imo) even the top and bottom part you should be able to make without a lathe just the cnc with the correct bits.

Here is a video of Avid rotary in action (not mine) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr7ckMyfCmc

I wish I have bought my cnc years ago.

Merry Christmas to all.

EDITED: 25 Dec 2022 by MATADEM

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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.18 In reply to 10927.16 
Pior, thx for response...
Glad u enforced what I thought, it seems Moi is very 2d friendly.
I am interested if you find the tablet experience faster than PC? I have a pc tablet...
Also, does anyone have any experience with the 3d CAD mouses, is it Moi compatible? real world benefits?

So Moi will not do fill ins, such as photograph of different species of wood... right? Where would I go next to accomplish that task so I can produced realistic renders? hope there is something short of Rhino. Will next version of Moi have this feature? Any plans for basic CAD fill, such as hatches, dots, etc.?
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 From:  BG (DOLPHIN)
10927.19 In reply to 10927.17 
Matadem, thx for ringing in... seems u have been in my shoes not long ago ;)
Several questions for you, as u have direct experience with where I am heading...

First, I spoke direct to Vectrix tech support, they can not cut Helix.... only 2.5D, i.e. wrap around 2d cuts. They researched it hard before confirming, so I assume they got it right... It appears a more capable CAM is required...

I was considering an AVID, love the flexibility. Then I watched a you tube video of a guy who owns Avid then an Phantom, and he showed how flexy the avid frame was, which is why he could not get the repeatability he desired.... which was acheived on his phantom...or any solid welded base machine. I plan to do very fine work, joinery, etc, where accuracy is mandatory. Hence why I was swayed away from AVid. I am curious of your thoughts on this? They reviewer was not trashing Avid, as he still owns one.... but it did make me feel as if rigidity should be a priority?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjruXNz_9hk&t=465s

Although, re checked the avid web site and the desk top unit appears to be sturdy option, as it has no legs...hmmmm....

The other issue with Avid was no ATC supported by the company... although a 3rd party unit is available, but fear the support issue...

any input would be helpful...
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10927.20 In reply to 10927.18 
Hi BG,

re:
> Also, does anyone have any experience with the 3d CAD mouses, is it Moi
> compatible? real world benefits?

MoI does support the Space Mouse from 3DConnexion. re: real world benefits - it's basically personal preference some people like them others do not.


> So Moi will not do fill ins, such as photograph of different species of wood... right? Where
> would I go next to accomplish that task so I can produced realistic renders? hope there is
> something short of Rhino.

MoI doesn't do textures and rendering, you would need to use a separate rendering program for that. A couple that you might check out are Octane, KeyShot, SimLab Composer or Blender. SimLab Composer has a free version that works well, that would probably be a good one to start out with.


< Will next version of Moi have this feature?

No probably not.> Any plans for basic CAD fill, such as hatches, dots, etc.?

I would like to implement these eventually but I don't know when it will happen. Currently if you need to do filled shapes you would need to do that in a different program.

- Michael
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