MOI + SubD or not?  1-20  21-23

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 From:  angeliclight
1048.1 
Hello,

I am just getting started in 3D and have been watching this and other forums to try to understand what software meets my interests.

Would I even NEED a SubD modeler if I am not doing anything organic? I am wanting to focus on mechanical and interior/exterior. I am not familiar enough, though, with 3D technology yet to know if a SubD program like Modo would enhance MOI or just unduly waste time and effort.

Could anyone please reply with suggestions as to how a SubD would enhance MOI in those areas mentioned, or if not thanks in advance for saving me the time and trouble!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.2 In reply to 1048.1 
Hi angeliclight, it is a little difficult to give you an exact answer without seeing some examples of the kinds of shapes that you want to build. But in general from your description it does not sound like SubD would be a good fit.

"Organic" can be a bit hard to define precisely though, some kinds of highly sculptured surfaces can be good to do with SubD. Basically if thing you're making is kind of "formless" in the sense that is rather shapeless and lumpy without any very distinct profiles or primary form to it, that is the kind of thing that can work well in a SubD modeler.

If your shape has more of a distinct form that can be driven by some outline or profile curves, then I would say you wouldn't want to use SubD for it. Most of the time mechanical type designs fall into this area.

- Michael
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 From:  angeliclight
1048.3 In reply to 1048.2 
Okay,

I am sort of understanding it now. NURBS tends to be more shape-oriented, or at elast better for it. SUBD is more like pushing and pulling with clay, no? URBS in this case would do a guitar more quickly than SUBD.

I think I am understanding this more - I thought they were mutually exclusive, meaning I would get MOI or Modo (for example) and the two would do the same thing, i mistakenly thought, so why get both? But now I see that each is a different tool.

Not two hammers but a hammer and a wrench, so to speak.

Okay, thanks for being so patient with me, being a newbie. If it's any consolation, you most definitely just made a sale!

Thanks, again, and sure open to further input!

- A
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
1048.4 In reply to 1048.3 
< NURBS in this case would do a guitar more quickly than SUBD.
Not obligatory for this object depending of the precsion you want :)
For internal part of a watch Nurbs will be winner and more easy to use ;)
Power of nurbs is the precision of Boolean operations ! (add, substract)
Impossible to make that with the same precision with SubD (when SubD has boolean tools) ;)
All these monsters http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/featured2col.php are quasi impossible to make with a nurbs modeler ;)
(a very few artists use nurbs for modelise human or monsters organic forms I know one but he modelises first in Subd and after import inside Nurbs for refine it : a crazzy guy ;)
Marcel Laverdet http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=34679


PS Modo has one of the more speedy renderer inside :)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery

EDITED: 22 Oct 2007 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.5 In reply to 1048.3 
Hi angeliclight, yes I think you've got it now.

> SUBD is more like pushing and pulling with clay, no?

Yup, I think that is a pretty good analogy. I usually say that NURBS is more like drawing or illustration, since you tend to draw profile or outline curves, and then use those curves to construct surfaces by sweeping, etc.., or also to cut holes or indentations by drawn profiles.

SubD tends to work more by manipulating a cage of interconnected points in 3D. It is more like sculpting since you go in there and move little individual pieces and points of a surface in and out to adjust the shape, it is also easier in SubD to dice up a small region of a model into smaller polygons and then continue to make adjustments to the points.


> Not two hammers but a hammer and a wrench, so to speak.

Yup, definitely!

Each one is best at different kinds of models. If you're making a mechanical shape that can be created by some outline curves and also involves cuts and precise holes in it, then NURBS is not only way faster but also more precise (because cutting pieces with one another works better).

On the other hand if you have a surface that needs small details like little bumps or wrinkles, that works a lot better with SubD since you are a lot more free to go into a small region and make fine adjustments to the shape. A lot of character models tend to fall into this area.

- Michael
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 From:  angeliclight
1048.6 In reply to 1048.5 
You've really got me excited here...

What about NURBS for exterior architecture? For interior? Faster than SubD?

"If you're making a mechanical shape that can be created by some outline curves and also involves cuts and precise holes in it, then NURBS is not only way faster but also more precise (because cutting pieces with one another works better)."

So - if I wanted to make one of the Transformers from the movie - your description makes it sound like NURBS would actually be the only way to go for speed and accuracy...

What a great feeling - I am finally understanding all this stuff. :)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.7 In reply to 1048.6 
> What about NURBS for exterior architecture? For interior? Faster than SubD?

It is a little hard to say absolutely without seeing some actual models.

For some kinds of things there are specialized tools that are neither NURBS nor SubD that are tuned up for constructing specific types of objects. Architecture is an example of this - there are special modeling tools focused just on producing architectural designs which have things like a window tool, a door tool, a roof making tool, etc... If you want to create something that falls within the area that such a tool was designed to create, then that will be faster than any kind of general purpose modeler.

As far as choosing between a general purpose NURBS and SubD approach, I would say NURBS would be generally be a better match, it will more closely match a kind of "draw from blueprints" type approach.

In fact, that is not a bad way to also describe the difference - if you can imagine a technical specification for a shape being drawn on a drafting board, that will usually mean it has the distinct kinds of profiles and well defined forms that work well with NURBS tools.


> So - if I wanted to make one of the Transformers from the movie - your description
> makes it sound like NURBS would actually be the only way to go for speed and accuracy...

I would have to take a closer look at how they were shaped.... It's possible they may have a lot of "character" elements in them as well, like don't they have a kind of face on them?

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
1048.8 
Make a car wil be more accurate with a nurbs program than a subD program for example ;)
That will not say that you can't make a car with a subD prog ;)
But in industry production you don't use SbD for make a car, for make images of car you can ;)
Take a look at this ;) http://www.etereaestudios.com/docs_html/nixus_htm/nixus_index.htm
Nurbs are integrated into the process of conception it self as drawing tool!
Look also this tut http://www.etereaestudios.com/training_img/sentinel_tutorial/sentinel_tutorial.htm

In SubD it will be more difficult to input simple curves so easy ;)
In a nurb prog a curve can be used as a tool for "cut" a volume, in SubD it's an another story ;)

In Moi you can use curve as tools of drawing ;)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery

EDITED: 22 Oct 2007 by PILOU

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 From:  yannada
1048.9 In reply to 1048.8 
Moi + T-Splines plug in is what i was thinking of...?

angeliclight Nurbs is where you should look at even if you design like Zaha Hadid http://zahahadidblog.com/category/projects
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.10 In reply to 1048.9 
Hi Yannada - MoI + T-Splines would be interesting to explore at some point. But it isn't really like adding one plug-in, it would mean adding an entire different toolset for polygon and point cage manipulation. It's quite a lot of stuff to add that is very different from MoI's current toolset.

- Michael
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Message 1048.11 deleted 23 Oct 2007 by YANNADA

Message 1048.12 deleted 23 Oct 2007 by YANNADA

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 From:  yannada
1048.13 In reply to 1048.10 
1048.11 In reply to 1048.10
Hi Micheal, I am glad you show some interest on T-Splines, I understand is going to take time but is not imposible.
T-Splines is one of the most, if not the most talk about topic with in the design world, and i can see why, for first time blobism, (organic design) can take place within the same app. subds to nurbs, nurbs to subds and so on....amazing dont you think so.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.14 In reply to 1048.13 
Hi Yannada, it is definitely cool. I think that in the future there will be generally more convergence like this.

The big unknown is how to merge many different toolsets into one application in a clean way. A lot of times trying to merge a lot of diverse functions into one application leads to a very complex and difficult to use application...

- Michael
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 From:  Grendel
1048.15 In reply to 1048.6 
"So - if I wanted to make one of the Transformers from the movie - your description makes it sound like NURBS would actually be the only way to go for speed and accuracy..."

It can sound that way but not all the time for mechanical models. The transformers are all sub-d models as is this one I made in Amapi 8 after watching the movie. One thing that counters the percieved need for NURBS if it is mechanical is if the accuracy is really needed for the "thing". If it is just to convey an image instead of prototype work then maybe not.

Allot of individual parts for a transformer will need to be tesselated and while MOI has one of the best OBJ exporters I've ever seen it's still not as good as a built by hand sub-d model as far as putting only the exact polys you need on the mesh in the first place.

Attachments:

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.16 In reply to 1048.15 
Hi Grendel, that's certainly something that is more of a "character" model rather than what you'd think of as a mechanical CAD model. SubD and characters definitely go together well.


> as far as putting only the exact polys you need on the mesh in the first place.

Sure, placing every single point and every single polygon in exactly the right spot will create a great looking SubD model no doubt about it.

But that comes with a considerable cost in time and effort...

- Michael
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 From:  yannada
1048.17 In reply to 1048.16 
thanks Micheal, well said........
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 From:  Grendel
1048.18 
Your 100% correct Michael, It must be getting close to release time ;) nudge, nudge
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1048.19 In reply to 1048.18 
:) It's pretty darn close, just the introductory part of the documentation, a couple more video tutorials, and figuring out how the licensing will work.

- Michael
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 From:  angeliclight
1048.20 In reply to 1048.19 
Re: Licensing...

My wife, who is a school teacher, just asked me if there will be any sort of educational pricing. She teaches computers at the elementary school level and is looking for some software that is simple enough for a 5th grader to at least be exposed to to see what can be done and to demonstrate the technology.

Would something like this be in the works? With how easy this program is compared to something like Maya I'd think you'd have a million educational customers in something like a few days...
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