Hello,

Ah yes! right; Adobe introduced his PDF in their Illustrator files.
Yes, I can understand that we can get back 2 paths in MoI, when we import a filled surface + outline.

Anyway, as the old format of Illustrator 8 running very well, I will use this format for files with a lot of strokes inside.
Thus my problem will be solved.

Free disgression: Frankly, I havn't never liked much Illustrator, a incredible boring vector drawing program (following me); I was more ALDUS Freehand (Other Mind = More Clever), a software more complete, easier & more convivial (user-friendly). ALDUS's developers was genius, when Creator of ADOBE was good in money-making (like one egocentric Steeve Jobs or his chum, big Bill Doors (Gates)). Nobody knows that important functions in Freehand are not still in Illustrator; & do you know that today, since some years, Adobe sales again & always an old version of FREEHAND? .... So that means, that a lot of people in World, asks FreeHand to Adobe...
FreeHand is not dead as "Intellidraw", an other genius program developed by the people of ALDUS. I think the users of Adobe are all the time stuffed as poor christmas Turkeys. Do you remember where is the great QUARK XPRESS, deads by the megalomaniac madness of his creator?

... Because I hate the monopolies (Forbidden by the French Laws) and all the abusive or excessive prices, & that I am a very gentle registered Adobe user, I have several times send to Adobe the sentence "Hurrah for pirate copies; I want one!". But, find a pirate copy, or same a legal CreativeSuite 2, 3 or 4 it's something not easy... OK! Long life Rock'n'roll! Forgive all spell mistakes. Thanks!

Hi Bard, have you ever tried Xara for 2D illustration as well?

Hello Mickael,

Yes, I have tried Xara (Designer Pro), but I don't hit with the curious policy of MAGIC (Group that sales Xara); & I don't find the tools & interface very friendly nor intuitive.

The products of COREL (CORELDRAW) was also good, but penible to use. EXPRESSION an old thing in Vector, now sales by Microsoft is well too, but it's Microsoft (LOL!).

The best to DRAW in Vector, that was FLASH until the number 4.0 or 6.0 (Same under MACROMEDIA); since, this soft has changed and becomes to heavy. The first version (SMARTSKETCH) was so CLEVER... I like simple software that thinks final USER (not to the trader who goes to buy a software for its business to put Slaves in front of Screen).

So, the MIND is primordial, primal, essential in any creation. I'm not sensitive to the stupid Advertisers (Publicity), true Parasitics, who don't understand what is the LIVING. It's why I like MoI [MoAï] same if it doesn't give me (for the moment) a choice of bevels on letters (LOL).

You know, I surprise me to draw in Vector, directly in MoI. You should to add a function of distribution, spacing (alignement) between objets. Ah yes! also a solid TORUS and may be some Dodécahédric volumes, a trick to make easily geodesic domes.

Hi bard, I don't know what you have against Xara's "policy", I find them most non-agressive, (you should see serif!).

Over time I found Xara to be the fastest and most robust vector interface.
The learning curve is very fast and it have a lot of subtle productive details.

I also like the effort they invested in consistency across functions.

Illustrator does have a lot of very cool functions though, but some important core mechanic aspects are not so great.

Most irritating examples for me are:

-Zooming in a complex drawing is quite slow.
-No enclosing fence selection method.
-No direct line/fill method (you have you select before you hit a swatch).
-No direct radial/linear transparency tool.
-Involuntary selection of non-selected object's nodes while fencing.
-Raster objects handles differently than paths.
-Crippling shortcut key system

There is also a lot of redundant tools and panels, crucial features are often buried in menus.

I imagine it depends on the type of work you do, if you mostly do simple objects like corporate logos with lots of white Illustrator can be quite cool.
I mostly do illustration with Xara, and I often use hundreds of vector and raster objects to build them, little details like forcing fence selection over objects is quite appreciated.

Xara sure has weak spots and they do not have an army of developers, but all in all I do prefer their shortcoming over other vector program I've tried.

Marc

Expression 3 is now free ;)

Hello Marc,

<< ... I don't know what you have against Xara's "policy", I find them most non-agressive, (you should see serif!).>>

Yes, the very bad Illustrator (Well sold) is became a better software after that ADOBE buys ALDUS (FreeHand). The choice of a software (Almost for the Freelances, not for the Employees; and still it's questionable) is also a stuff of taste; so, happily, everybody cannot like the same products.

I have tried several times, not one "Xara 2D", but one "Xtreme" and now one "Designer Pro", justly because I don't like very much Illustrator & I search steadily its substitute; but never I can get a good feeling with this Vector program, it recalls me too much one Coreldraw; I don't arrive to feel a real pleasure with it. Even So, XARA 3D, that often I used, was a good program very easy & convivial; clearly since a long time from XARA company (A company in England if I don't say stupidity, same if I believe that was Korean software from one ULEAD at beginning). The products don't stop to change of name and company, it's tiring.

About MAGIC, I have criterion all over ("Tous azimuts" in French; you understand French).
"Abracadabrantesque" MAGIC, very recent compagny or GROUP; this name of "MAGIC", ridiculous name that defines the deception, the wrong, the simulation, the tricks of wizard or witche, sorcerer or sorceress; this word annoys me, I know too much the real & true meaning of the words & I am hostile to any myth, holy joe fable (fairytale, lie, invention), mystifiers, hoaxers. I fight me along the years against all sorts of idiot "MAGIC". Well of course! this is a professional deformation; this first point cannot stop me to appreciate or not, some products of this company really not "MAGIC"; I look at Disney movies without problem. But a name gives a mind, so it's one thing to consider (with science or conscience).
By principle, a GROUP is a big SECT who wants to rake, pinch, nick, to cast one's net wide. I never support this mind, I believe in ARTISANS, craft industry, the crafts, in good ARTISTS (the true artists, not the Painter from Beaux-Arts, fine-Arts). In a group the developers (the real creators of the real progression of humans) are interchangeables. If these groups make money thanks all the stupid clients and customers, the END or final result after 10 years, is NO FREEDOM, NO LIBERTY, NO CHOICE (As a SECT at POWER). So When I see quibblings of a Group, my antennas go out as a reflex of resistant and rebel. I could to dig my analysis, but I should to write a book.
You know, that the first creators of all the softwares that we use everywhere, don't work in the company that sells their programs. You know well the problem that we have between Creator & Sales executive ("SALE" in French is not "PROPRE, CLEAN", we have all 2 ears, no?). Personnally I supporting always the small ARTISAN, against the big GROUP, the strong. I belong to a race in way of extinction.

Okay, I stop... My answer is already too long, & I havn't say all... XARA is not any more XARA, it's MAGIC GROUP.
But Yes, the old XARA have good softwares. Kenavo! & sorry for the spell mistakes that I don' see.

Re: Expression, the link for the free old Expression v3 vector drawing program is:

http://download.microsoft.com/download/a/5/d/a5d625a5-2e3d-4e9c-8608-6de48d7b569f/CreatureHouseExpression3_3.exe

It was a pretty cool and interesting drawing program, it's too bad the developers weren't able to stick things out on their own.


> Ah yes! also a solid TORUS and may be some Dodécahédric volumes,
> a trick to make easily geodesic domes.

Well, a torus is formed pretty easily by drawing a circle and using Revolve on it.

For something like a dodecahedron, the easiest thing is to have a library of shapes saved off as separate 3DM files and then you can use File > Import to place any of them into your current model. Also if you right-click on import you'll do an "ImportPart" which lets you also position and rotate the imported object right then as well.

There's a page here with all kinds of various polyhedra in 3DM format that can be loaded into MoI:
http://www.rhino3d.nl/pythposter/pyth3dm-eng.html

- Michael

Oups!

Ok BARD, maintenant pose cette bouteille et calme toi, l'ambulance va arriver...

Let me know how much you would like to pay me, and I'll look at compiling a library of various objects that could be picked by a single keystoke and clcik...

Ah! I see the link with RHINO -CEROS, "C'est rosse"; translation: "It's horrid, hard hard".

Yes a TORUS is not hard to built with MoI, it's just that we have to built it.

Why we have a CUBE and a SPHERE? It's so easy to built a cube (6 plans) or a sphere (rotation) in MoI?
You should to delete these basic volumes, to see the reaction of the users (LOL). We could to import any cube or sphere from outside, no? ...
It's too the same sort of valid idea for a library of shapes, that we have to search outside of one application. I prefer always to have all beneath the hand (To see by example, BRYCE 3D of Eric Wenger, the most excellent 3D software never offered to ARTISTS of the Whole World; & for a very small price at this time).

It's a waste of time to search a thing that we need immediately, that breaks the INSPIRATION, & sometimes kills it definitively. You know it; a true Artist is not a Roman, it's not a calculating, scheming guys. A simple ring of a phone can to make lose the best idea that you gone to find just before this alarm bell (noise of danger); in a snap of the fingers. It's why Artists pass for crazy without senses, lines, directions, to the eyes of any Cubit or Human (a "Cubit = Size of one elbow; forearm"; a small-dwarf or monkey; a pygmée = goblin, impish, a beast, a stocky, a antik-greek & its worst counterfeit, the "Roman of romA = +14 MILLIONS DEAD in only 4th centuries").

But, I repeat often the same question: "After the death & the total disparition of any civilisation; what it stays, remains from it? What we find from she (if we consider the ancient Living peoples)?
The answer is : "Just & ALWAYS ARTS, the work of ARTISTS or ARTISANS (Craft, Craftmen, it's the same)".

So I add this question: "Who are the Peoples the most important for the TIME, SPIRIT & EARTH?"
Answer: The ARTISANS or ARTISTS (it's exactly the same words = The one who products EARTH = AR, ARE, AREA, CLAY, objets, domains, states, countries, cultures on the floor...). I consider always a FARMER like an Artist or an Artisan; a Farmer have to make GOOD cultures (growings).

It's why an true ARTIST or ARTISAN has never one second to lose; he is always a master of Time who misses always of Time to do something (As a shoemaker wears bad shoes). You are an ARTIST too, you know very well what is Time; it's not "Money" for "Cubits", but a length of complex processes that we cannot find again, when or if, we lost this time or these Moments of Inspirations (Breath or MoI); it is a question of engineering, work of genius, not a material thing, imposed (taxpaid) by romans, crooks, robbers, traders or hoaxers). Brief! ...

The INSPIRATION is something very light, very fluid, very fluctuating. It's not a stable or reliable element. Inspiration is not made for Accounters, Book-keepings, if you see what I want to say. In some minutes of time, You inspire (prompt, breath) by dozens.... So calculate me, how many inspirations You have lost, after 12 months of work, with a tool which you have to search what you need directly, promptly? ... (bip, bip, bip). Well...

What is MoI? if not, "MOMENT of INSPIRATION" and not "MOMENT of PROGRAMMATION, CALCULATION, PREVISION".

As Artist or Artisan, me like all the others, we don't like & we don't know to program, to make libraries (it's not our center of worries, concerns, preoccupations). We follow inspiration; aspiration, the breath, spirit; something furtive, surreptitious, stealthy, sly. Is MoI is thinking for ARTISTS (ARTISANS), or made for Mathematicians, Progammers or Managers? I ask the question.
This good library of RHINO should to be accessible, available, directly in MoI (that's besides my conviction, idea, opinion).

If you see BRYCE 3D, you understand the right concept for Artist (Artisan); it's one of the best references & a product very complete for landscapes, realist renderings, creative 3D (a lot of Designers used or had used Bryce). After BRYCE & METACREATION, all the softwares have changed; ARTISTS have changed the World in GOOD in BEAUTIFUL, in conviviality. We cannot never say the same thing, for CUBITS-BANKERS or Humans.

"To be or not to be"; is the answer. It's not the question.

Hello BurrMan,

I let you know that I paid you with 1 ton of gratitude & 1 quintal of mercy.
That is a good price, isn't it? A deared price...

Hello Ycarry: Une bouteille de RHUM' c'est un coulage de nez! Hic!!!
& un FORUM, c'est un coulage de foire (marchés aux bestiaux; voire aussi: Négoce & Esclaves). Un BUZZ.

A bottle of RHUM' ("Rhume = Cold") it's a flow of nose! Hips!...
& a FORUM, it's a flow of fair (market). A BUZZ.

Ycarry: Super! Great! Very realistic rendering. All is made with MoI?
It's incredible...

""""""""""Hello BurrMan,

I let you know that I paid you with 1 ton of gratitude & 1 quintal of mercy.
That is a good price, isn't it? A deared price... """"""""""

Those are great payments! But I'm a brand new dad. So all my extra work has to produce currency to pay for those little guy's.. Sorry, maybe when they get older.

Hi Bard,

> Why we have a CUBE and a SPHERE?

It's because those are used so frequently by a large number of people.

The number of people using a torus frequently and repeatedly for their modeling is extremely low.

Sure, you may want to use one every now and then, but there is a big difference between something that you do infrequently versus something that you need to do all the time.

If you need to create only 1 torus a day, then the 5 seconds that it takes to create one by drawing a circle and doing revolve is not any kind of significant interruption to your workflow.

In fact, it's much more the opposite - having the UI clogged up with a whole lot of things that would only save you 5 seconds once a week or so is really bad overall because there is a negative effect to having a whole ton of stuff in the UI that you have to sort through every time you want to do the stuff that you need to do much more frequently than that.


> I prefer always to have all beneath the hand <...>

Unfortunately that does not scale well - adding in a ton of stuff that is rarely used is exactly what causes "bloat", making the UI ponderous and more difficult to use - it's way more difficult to have to sort through some giant UI panel containing 100 things in it than it is to deal with something streamlined to have more essential stuff in it.


In the future I want to make it easier to do stuff like have a list of plug-ins that you could browse to add in some more specialized functions - a torus command would be a good fit as a plug-in like that.

But for the time being it does literally take only 5 seconds to create one, I just timed myself to do it right now.

- Michael

"""""""""""""But I'm a brand new dad"""""""""""""

Congratulations Mr Burr!

Marc

Boré da Mihangel Michael!

<< The number of people using a torus frequently and repeatedly for their modeling is extremely low.>>

How do you know this? Have you a numbered return on the use of a Cone in a 3D software? ...
I use torus one thousand times more than everybody, I want to click 1000 times in this poll...

<< In the future I want to make it easier to do stuff like have a list of plug-ins that you could browse to add in some more specialized functions - a torus command would be a good fit as a plug-in like that.>>

Yes, that will be good all that. I thought to suggest to plan a custom space or box of "Ressources" with tabs for user, where we could slide and drop customs colors, textures (maybe), shapes, lines (strokes), patterns or backgrounds.

I asked me also, if it will be possible to apply a degree of transparence to objets. By example, if we built a glass with water inside among solid objets; to be abble to simulate what it is not opaque, but translucent or transparent. This possibility should to interest a lot of users. I hope that I am not the lonely-poor-western to want this?

Hi Bard,

> How do you know this? Have you a numbered return on
> the use of a Cone in a 3D software? ...

I know it from my long experience of developing CAD software and working with customers and helping them do stuff.

Especially by helping people work through their problems I get a chance to see what kinds of problems they are running into and see patterns in how many people are experiencing the same problem. The particular problem of "not being able to create a torus fast enough" is extremely rare...


> Yes, that will be good all that. I thought to suggest to plan a
> custom space or box of "Ressources" with tabs for user, where
> we could slide and drop customs colors, textures (maybe),
> shapes, lines (strokes), patterns or backgrounds.

Yeah I want to have customizable tabs eventually but that's more complex to implement and it's probably further out.

In a sooner time frame than that, I want to have a "Plug-ins" button on the bottom toolbar next to Options which will pop up a menu where various extensions will be listed. I'm not exactly sure when that will happen either yet though.


> I asked me also, if it will be possible to apply a degree
> of transparence to objets.

Yeah this comes up more often - I do want to have this as well, but the way video cards function does not make it particularly easy to make translucent things, it basically requires a lot of special sorting work to be done by the application and it's something that could easily degrade performance significantly unless it's done quite carefully. Things that can impact display performance a lot require a lot of additional development time with stuff like a lot of measurements and testing being done, so it's time consuming work.

It's difficult for me to know exactly when some particular feature that will require a lot of work will be completed. Often times focusing on an area that requires a lot of work is a tradeoff that means doing that particular feature would then postpone other features until some later time. Right now I kind of place new modeling functions at a higher priority level.

- Michael