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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (128 of 214) 
412.128 

Complaints by Steph
Seems for the Import OBJ that Moi gives Normal's facetts of "Open surface" transformed in Poly in impredictable result !
So does it possible to see the normals of Poly Surfaces (by color (?) and possibility to click on them for inverse it before export?

You can say take an another Poly prog for make that,
but seems that Moi Smooth Phong is very "complex"
and the other poly progs have many difficulties for manage this problem !

A new challenge ? :)
PS Or use an algorithm for make "Open surface" artificially like "Closed surface" for have Normal to the external?

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
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EDITED: 24 Apr 2007 by PILOU
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (129 of 214) 
412.129 
Always by Steph
All was made by Moi (Symetry too)
problem on the left
After Symetry problem is inversed!!!
Open surfaces (transformed in poly) seems have a problem in Moi ?
It's some annoying for the export to the real time system :(

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery

EDITED: 24 Apr 2007 by PILOU
Attachments:
Attachmentbug001.jpg
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (130 of 214) 
412.130 In reply to 412.128 
> You can say take an another Poly prog for make that,
> but seems that Moi Smooth Phong is very "complex"
> and the other poly progs have many difficulties for manage this problem !

Hi Pilou - I think that what you are talking about here is that MoI exports nice smoothing information in a form called "vertex normals". These normals are very accurate since they come from the original NURBS surface.

It sounds like in Steph's polygon program (Cinema4D??) , flipping the direction of a mesh causes it to throw away existing vertex normals and calculate new ones - this is bad because the normals calculated "from scratch" in a polygon modeler come from just averaging adjacent polygon faces. This is not as accurate as the original normals and can cause shading defects.

Has Steph reported this problem to the makers of his polygon program? The authors of that program should improve the way they flip objects - instead of discarding the good normals they should just flip those normals to the other direction.

It is not really a difficult problem to solve at all, it is actually a very simple procedure, each normal should just get multiplied by -1.0.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (131 of 214) 
412.131 In reply to 412.129 
Hi Pilou,

> All was made by Moi (Symetry too)
> problem on the left
> After Symetry problem is inversed!!!

I'm not sure that I completely understand, but one thing to try is to make sure to use Edit/Join to join surfaces that are next to each other so that they become one object that has a shared edge.

MoI should create polygons with a consistent direction on them when there are shared edges.

I'm not sure from just looking the image (instead of seeing a .3dm file), but it looks like the smaller object there has different orientations along each of its 3 surfaces - this is possible if they are surfaces that are just positioned next to each other instead of joined.

If there is an object that is all joined together but is generating meshes with inconsistent normals between different pieces of the same object, then that would be a bug. If this is the problem it would help to have an example model so I could fix the bug.


> Open surfaces (transformed in poly) seems have a problem in Moi ?

Well, open surfaces should work without a problem, but there is not an automatic "outside" direction that can be calculated for an open surface, unlike a closed surface.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (132 of 214) 
412.132 In reply to 412.131 
Previously I wrote:

> Well, open surfaces should work without a problem, but there is not an
> automatic "outside" direction that can be calculated for an open surface,
> unlike a closed surface.

However, I should be able to do something automatic for surfaces of revolution, even if they are open.

Since they have a central axis I should be able to point the normals to the outside of that.

So that's one thing that should be not too hard for me to fix up.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (133 of 214) 
412.133 
thx for the answer :)
Waiting the 3dm from Steph for fix the situation :)

another complaint :)
Seems Moi export to OBJ all objects even "hidden" objects !
Is that normal?
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (134 of 214) 
412.134 In reply to 412.133 
> another complaint :)
> Seems Moi export to OBJ all objects even "hidden" objects !
> Is that normal?

Sounds like a bug in MoI, it should be easy to fix this one up.

One other thing Steph may be interested in - the next beta will also have an improvement to Hide, so that when you show hidden objects you will be able to select which ones you want to show instead of just everything being shown. That should help out a bit for more complex scenes.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (135 of 214) 
412.135 In reply to 412.131 

Here the 3dm about the open Surface!
Bonne chance!

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Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
Attachments:
Attachmenttest nm.zip
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (136 of 214) 
412.136 In reply to 412.135 
I see that those pieces that have different orientations were not actually touching each other, so join would not help out there.

However, everything here is a surface of revolution so I should be able to get all these pieces oriented as you would expect.

Thanks for the file!

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (137 of 214) 
412.137 In reply to 412.136 

Good news :)

Last complaint of the day (night) :)
Is it possible to have an export obj extra "low poly" (a circle ---> quasi a square)
towards the limit! Push the cursor to the fewer polygone

See this little movie
Objects are Moi at different resolution
http://stephlx.free.fr/HyperionProjet/lowPolyReduc.mov

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (138 of 214) 
412.138 In reply to 412.137 
> Is it possible to have an export obj extra "low poly" (a circle ---> quasi a square)
> towards the limit! Push the cursor to the fewer polygone

I should be able to figure out some way to add this in as an option.

I guess what I can do for this is to add an "Angle" box to the advanced settings part of the mesh dialog.

The slider currently is used to set the angle, but it is limited to a range between 35 degrees (for fewest polygons) to 3 degrees (for the highest number of polygons). If you could enter in a particular value directly then you could get something coarser, he probably wants something more like 90 degrees in this case.

Of course you will get really bad looking models when doing this...

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (139 of 214) 
412.139 In reply to 412.138 

Thx for the efforts ! (fewer Polygons)
>Of course you will get really bad looking models when doing this...
Yes but it's for animation near/ far away :)

For the "normals" I will try to explain the Steph problem :)
C4D knows to remake the good "normals" : its the "Backface Culling" function during the rendering
It was disable for show you the the aspect of normals after the "poly transform" in Moi

Why it's a problem? In real time "Backface Culling" makes to lost performance (speed) and create annoying other probs :(

Normals can be also be remove in the good way in C4D before the rendering in but in this case
informations of the "Normal Smoothing" based on the Nurbs objects is lost :(
And that is a pity because the "Moi Normal smooth" quality are very good for simulate the perfect forms of nurbs objects even on Low Poly Object!

It's why if "good Normal orientation" can be made in Moi that will be the paradise :)

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery

EDITED: 24 Apr 2007 by PILOU
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Apr 2007  (140 of 214) 
412.140 In reply to 412.139 
Hi Pilou,

> Normals can be also remove in the good way before the rendering in C4D
> but in this case informations of the "Normal Smoothing" based on the Nurbs
> objects is lost :(

But why are the normals lost in C4D upon the flip?

This sounds to me like a bug in C4D - it should not lose the "good vertex normals" when you do a flip, it should just reverse those accurate normals and keep them around instead of throwing them away.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 24 Apr 2007  (141 of 214) 
412.141 In reply to 412.140 

<But why are the normals lost in C4D upon the flip?
Asked to Steph :)

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 25 Apr 2007  (142 of 214) 
412.142 

Does it possible to adapt the script "arrow key rotation 3D view" to a selection? :)

When nothing is selected the 3Dview is rotated with the arrow key
When something is selected the selection is rotated with the arrow key (useful in any view!)
/ by the center of gravity of the selection (or by an another point) ?

I suppose yes, but I am some rusted for this little brain sport ;)
Maybe enter somewhere a numeric angle rotation will be also useful
actually 6° can't make 10° :)

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery

EDITED: 25 Apr 2007 by PILOU
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 25 Apr 2007  (143 of 214) 
412.143 In reply to 412.140 

Steph answer :)
C4D don't work with "smoothing's normal", only with a global Phong angle parameter smoothing!
So it's a real luck that C4D can even yet recover perfectly Moi's Normal !!! Other 3D prog can't (Hexagon...
So seems that is a C4D bug!

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery

EDITED: 25 Apr 2007 by PILOU
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 From:  Michael Gibson 25 Apr 2007  (144 of 214) 
412.144 In reply to 412.142 
> When nothing is selected the 3Dview is rotated with the arrow key
> When something is selected the selection is rotated with the arrow key
> (useful in any view!)
> / by the center of gravity of the selection (or by an another point) ?

Hi Pilou, currently I don't think there is a way to do this since there isn't a way for a script to get the center of gravity of the selection right now. I can add this at some point in the future but I don't think this will be ready for V1.


> Maybe enter somewhere a numeric angle rotation will be also useful
> actually 6° can't make 10° :)

Well, if you requie a 10 degree rotation you can alter that script to have a 5 degree or 10 degree rotation instead of 6 degrees.

Is there something that you're doing that requires an exact 10 degree view rotation?

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson 25 Apr 2007  (145 of 214) 
412.145 In reply to 412.143 
Re: C4D

Well, it can't just be an accident that C4D uses the good normals to start with - that means they have some support for vertex normals in there.

The problem is that pre-defined vertex normals don't really work well with further point manipulation. If you select a point of the model and drag it to a new location, the vertex normals need to be changed as well.

It is understandable that during that type of an edit that the "good normals" would be eliminated and other ones created by averaging polygon faces.

However, this is not the case for a "flip" edit - in the case of doing a direction flip it is possible to preserve all the normals and just flip their directions as well.

The problem is that C4D apparently treats a "flip" edit the same as a "drag point" edit.

If Steph could request to them to not destroy the existing normals on a "flip" edit, that would be a nice improvement to C4D.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 25 Apr 2007  (146 of 214) 
412.146 In reply to 412.144 
>10°
Nothing special in 3D view, only if arrow keys can works for a "selection"
In this case any angle will be possible :)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 25 Apr 2007  (147 of 214) 
412.147 In reply to 412.145 
Despite the fact of this C4D bug seems other 3D prog have same problem !
hexagon, Subdo...
So a very cool thing will be in Moi in the OBJ export mode
all faces/normal "back to camera" in blue color : just click over for inverse it !
here in Subdo
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
Attachments:
Attachmentsubdo.jpg
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