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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.125 In reply to 3628.124 
Hi Nick, that's interesting that there is a toolkit available for DWF, I didn't know that existed.

What would be the benefit to you in having DWF output from MoI - is there a particular program that can only read in DWF format stuff and not any other formats?

I'm not really all that familiar with DWF myself - I guess it is basically trying to do the same job as PDF though? What are the advantages that you see compared to PDF?


I took a quick glance at it, and in some ways it seems to be a kind of complex file format, in that there are kind of various totally different sub formats within it, like 3D data is contained in a completely different kind of internal document than 2D data, etc... PDF is kind of like that as well though, with 3D PDF content being basically a completely different kind of structure kind of tacked on.

- Michael
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 From:  Nick (NVANLAAR)
3628.126 In reply to 3628.125 
You are correct with the two different froms for 2D vs. 3D. The reason for that is the 2D data (in some sort of xml format) is readable by the Microsoft XPS viewer which is included with Windows, so basically any windows (Vista +) computer can read 2D DWF data without any other program installed. This ability is limited to the DWFx format (which is kind of the new defacto).

The advantages of DWF over pdf are file size, and a more robust 3D viewer in addition to free markup tools (Adsk Design Review). DWF really is a more CAD-centric format than PDF. I *think* 3D pdf was kind of a reaction to DWF and is now in the hands of Tetra 4D (?) instead of Adobe. It's a good way to hand over a design for review without actually handing over the design. There aren't any specific programs (besides Design Review) that only accept DWF that I am aware of.

It has it's uses, but is not going to be a "Wow, I'm sold!" feature.

I attached a quick demo dwf (just some basic shapes). Note: only 2D stuff will show in xps viewer.

Windows 7 x64, Precision T3400, Intel C2Q @ 3 GHz
8 GB RAM, ATi Radeon HD 3870

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.127 In reply to 3628.126 
Hi Nick, I see - that could definitely be useful as a viewing mechanism.

That kind of thing is probably more on the back burner as compared to adding formats that are more about transferring data to be used by other CAD or illustration programs though.

2D PDF being generally similar in functionality but kind of more widespread would probably come first before DWF.

- Michael
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 From:  Nick (NVANLAAR)
3628.128 In reply to 3628.127 
The only other thing - and I don't know how it compares to 3D pdf, but the 3D data can be extracted. I have been playing on and off with IMSI DoubleCAD and it (probably TurboCAD as well) actually imports dwf 3D models and allows the use/editing of those models. Of course accuracy is compromised when that is done.

>2D PDF being generally similar in functionality but kind of more widespread would probably come first before DWF.

That's kind of what I figured. I have been trying for years to get clients to switch to dwf the file sizes are almost half of the same pdf (2D vs. 2D). I don't have or know of any programs that do both 3D pdf and 3D dwf so I can't compare 3D files.

Windows 7 x64, Precision T3400, Intel C2Q @ 3 GHz
8 GB RAM, ATi Radeon HD 3870

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 From:  Paul (CLOUDRIDER)
3628.129 In reply to 3628.127 
Michael,


I have two request and unfortunately they are not low-hanging fruit. One I have asked about in the past, and I am sure others have also, which is a Mac version.

The other request will probably illustrate a severe lack of knowledge on my part, but I would like a way to convert my beautiful N-gon mesh to quads. I like how quickly I can make a model in MOI, but if I import the mesh as a obj they are unusable in ZBrush for sculpting.

This turns out to be such problem that I recently bought Modo, which allows me to add edge loops on my SubD models to have a nice quad mesh.

I am not sure how tough it would be to reduce the amount of tris generated during export, but it would help if I only had to make a few modifications in Modo or Maya, instead of having to retopo the whole mesh.

Regards,

Paul
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.130 In reply to 3628.129 
Hi Paul, yeah unfortunately both of those are quite difficult things.

I am making some progress on converting the UI to a system that will be more feasible to run on other operating systems, so that's a step towards that but there may be several other big steps needed as well. So I'm not sure when that will actually happen. Meanwhile it is possible to run MoI on your Mac right now using the Parallels or VMWare virtualization systems.


> but I would like a way to convert my beautiful N-gon mesh to quads.

That's a much more difficult problem, since it would require a very different meshing mechanism, basically it would need to tile some kinds of complex outlines with a small pattern of quads. See these previous posts for some more description:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1244.48
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3854.15
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2451.50
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3869.64


> but if I import the mesh as a obj they are unusable
> in ZBrush for sculpting.

You can get an export for sculpting in ZBrush using some settings to divide the mesh into small pieces - also don't export using n-gons since ZBrush does not like to deal with n-gons, use "Output: Quads & Triangles" instead.

For dividing the mesh, enter a distance value in the "Divide larger than" setting to subdivide the mesh into little fragments, that can then be manipulated in ZBrush.

See here for some examples:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=804.26
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2833.5

- Michael
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 From:  Rudl
3628.131 
Meanwhile I think, the topologie of a NURBS surface is something special and it is very difficult or not possible to transfer it to polymodellers. I find, that this NURBS surfaces are better then all the others, probably of it´s mathematical concept, which creates them.

In my opinion it should be the task of programs like Modo, Blender and so on, to develope an importer for .3dm.

I say this, because i think it is better for Moi, that Micheal concentrates himself to develope MoI´s capabilities of making good surfaces,further.

I also would not need rendering and maesurement skills, for this I have TC, which has a .3dm importer. I have MoI because of it´s NURBSsurface skills.

Rudl
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.132 In reply to 3628.131 
Hi Rudl, yeah so the difficulty is that using polygons for subdivision surface smoothing requires a very particular kind of topology which is having everything tiled into a pattern of quad faces.

That's a very different kind of topology than what MoI currently creates - for example with a shape like this:



MoI will create just 1 single polygon for the top face if you have n-gons enabled when exporting that shape to polygons.

To have all quads instead would mean tiling that top face with a bunch of little quad pieces instead, having them radiate out from the boundaries. The difficult part about that is when the quads from different boundaries collide into one another, that's in particular where a new topology would have to be created.

There are some special "retopologizing" tools that can be used to do that kind of conversion now - several polygon modeling tools have some tools to manage that kind of conversion. Topogun (http://www.topogun.com/) is a full program dedicated to that task, and 3D-Coat has a good toolset for it as well. But yes, it's kind of something that is more likely to happen within a polygon modeling toolset than automatically from MoI.

- Michael
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 From:  Anis
3628.133 In reply to 3628.130 
Hi Michael...

> I am making some progress on converting the UI
Just curious, base on your prediction how long the conversion will be complete...? Hopefully you will make a good progress in the 3D Modeling improvement after the conversion is done.

Thanks....
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.134 In reply to 3628.133 
Hi Anis,

> Just curious, base on your prediction how long the
> conversion will be complete...?

Unfortunately it is quite difficult for me to make an accurate prediction - I actually thought I would be done with it already by now.

But there is not too much left, the UI for commands is nearly fully functional, and after the last pieces of that are finished the main thing left will be the Scene Browser.

Then yes once the new UI system is all functional I will then return to work on 3D modeling functions.

- Michael
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 From:  Anis
3628.135 In reply to 3628.134 
Hi Michael...

With the new UI engine, is it already customizable ? I mean user can drag and drop and rearrange the icon without need to go to the html editor.

>Then yes once the new UI system is all functional I will then return to work on 3D modeling functions.
Yeah, this will be more interesting... :)

Thanks Michael...
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.136 In reply to 3628.135 
Hi Anis,

> With the new UI engine, is it already customizable ?
> I mean user can drag and drop and rearrange the icon
> without need to go to the html editor.

No, that doesn't come automatically, it will take some more work in the future to implement easier customizability.

The current work is about removing the dependency on mshtml.dll .

There are a few tricky aspects to handling customization during the beta release process while I may be also be adding in new things in the UI for new feature areas. Something like buttons for new features need to get merged in with the customized UI. So that will take some planning to figure out how to handle that.

- Michael
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 From:  Shaun (MOISHAUN)
3628.137 In reply to 3628.136 
1 More Display Control
In Sketchup for example you can turn on different options like X-Ray, lines, shading. Also I don’t want a renderer bloating this wonderful program... but I would like simple materials like in Sculptris. Its easier to show the curvature of surfaces when you can use a reflective material.

2 Click on a point and change it between curve and corner.

3 Instancing

4 Live Symmetry (no copy mirror attach)

5 Through Points. Meaning, You can draw curves as either Control Points or Through Points. But it always ends up as Control Points after the curve is drawn. I want it to remain Through Points.
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 From:  Ditto
3628.138 In reply to 3628.137 
I wish there were more feedback from MoI: Is the command still running, did it terminate successfully or not? Maybe something like traffic lights: Green = All good, program idle; Yellow = Program running; Red = Error during last command, program idle.
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 From:  BurrMan
3628.139 In reply to 3628.137 
""""""""""but I would like simple materials like in Sculptris. Its easier to show the curvature of surfaces when you can use a reflective material."""""""""""

Have you tried turning on the "Metallic lighting" option in the options/view/Lighting options dialogue???


EDITED: 19 Jun 2012 by BURRMAN

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 From:  Shaun (MOISHAUN)
3628.140 In reply to 3628.139 
Never knew about that option! However in Sculptris you can make an actual environment map for fake glossy reflections like in video games. It's eye catching and easy on the graphics card.
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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
3628.141 
Hi Michael!

Since I'm new to MoI, please allow me to contribute my five cents... or ten.

First off, I'm so enamored with MoI and it's simple but powerful interface, I prefer to model in it exclusively. I'll use Sketchup for basic scene layout and some rendering, but now (for modeling) it seems clunky and scratchy (no anti-aliasing). Not to mention, slow and riddled with problems. ...but I'm preaching to the choir.

With that, my 30-day trial has ended and I'm using the "no-save" version until Christmas.
Yes, MoI has official become (in the immortal words of Jean Shepherd's Ralphie): my "Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot Range Model air rifle with a compass in the stock and a thingy which tells time".
At least I'll have time to concentrate on mastering the basics, such as feature tuning and modeling workflow.

Some of the features I really appreciate include: fantastically intuitive construction guides and snaps, the Boolean functions and my favorite - the Mesh tool.
For 17 years, I've used CorelDRAW! for design and layout occupationally, so I have a natural inclination to use NURBS, splines and Béziers. 3D design feels easy now.


For V3, I'll ask for some basic niceties that may be easier to consider:

1) Shearing - The 2D scaling and rotation handles are convenient. But I sure miss the ability to sheer or "skew" the selection vertically or horizontally. Maybe an addition to the Transform tools.
Rectangular objects would take on a parallelogram configuration.
To achieve this now, you can rotate the selection at a certain angle and scale it in one direction then rotate it back, but it is hard to manage the outcome.

2) Components - Active cloning, or the ability to copy a layer or group of objects and by changing any aspect of one, whether it be the content or the proportions the clones would follow suit.
Grouping has been asked for, but the layers feature does almost just as good a job of achieving object management.
But with a component or "clone" you could, for instance, make a bolt or handle like object, clone many copies of them, but be able to tweak them later without having to delete, reposition,
and start all over again. It's a little easier to do if they are compartmentalized.

3) Point Reduction - Primarily for curve paths, but could be applied to mesh surfaces. Often times a path is drawn and it would be nice to reduce the number of points that make it up.
The object here is to reduce the number of points in a curve while maintaining the original curve's basic shape, maybe even improving on it.
Corel does this automatically when you simply delete a selected cluster of points. Currently, when I delete a point on a curve it collapses into something I didn't want, and I have to
re-shape the curve. This point reduction curve integrity interpolation process could be applied to mesh surfaces as well.
The benefit to MoI use would be reduced model complexity.

4) Persistent Surface Editing - I would sure like to be able to go back to any mesh surface and edit the points. Many seem to become un-editable.
I would also like to edit any points on existing lines between two surfaces and alter the adjoining meshes simultaneously.
I believe that this has been brought up many times. And I do understand from reading other posts, that the point meshed become very convoluted and numerous, and there are "clip path" issues.
But it would be nice to go back and further tweak an organic shape.

5) Spiral Along Path - (Here's a fun one) I love the spiral tool. You can make spirals in any pitch and size that taper and even run flat.
So, to choose the dimensions, pick one point and then the second (in a straight line?). Good for making screws and spring.
What about telephone and microphone cords and flexi-tubing? How about cork-screw trajectories?
Could there be a check box or a button in the dialog to apply the spiral along any selected path? [Choose Path] > whole path or choose points on path...
Also. Could there be a logarithmic function or some setting that could change the pitch or exponent along the spiral. Or what I mean is, you could make Golden Mean spirals,
or springs that are closely spaced on one end then stretch out towards the other.

Here are some suggestions for the "just dreaming" list (just for fun and imagination):

1) Soft Selection - Does not have to be to the whole geometry as there are clipping issues and so forth. But, within the mesh itself. Especially if the mesh is a highly populated point grid, like some meshes.
If the soft selection worked inside of the mesh or inside of the curve then it would be easier for MoI to accomplish.
The area and movement of points does not have to be pre-defined by a diminishing radius, but by, either the points you have selected, or simply within the bounds of the mesh itself.
In the case of a soft selection within a curve, it would only effect the point in the curve or the points that have been initially selected. Thus, no effecting anything outside of the bounds
of the curve or mesh, and not the whole object set.
Corel (only as an example) does this with the "Rubber Band Tool". If I grab a selection of twenty points on a curve, the point I grab and move will move with the cursor,
and the remaining points move in lesser degree, with the end points in the selection or within the curve remaining fixed.

2) Piped Surface - Oh yes, like the one done with T-Splines. It may be easier instead, to be able to pick a set of curves, some intersecting or merging, and then an "Axial Extrusion" could be performed,
also blending the connections of the newly extruded axial pipes in a fillet fashion. It could be performed on box structures too - not like Sub-D, but some version of MoI's Shell that leaves
a silky smooth candy coating where you could make all kinds of organic structural framework. I can imagine making a frame out of clothes hangers and dipping them in liquid tape
a few hundred times and ending up with a useful organic shape.

3) Free Form Distortion & Tapering - The clipped surface issue was a problem from what I read. Perhaps there could be some type of surface-re-interpolation. You'd have more lines defining new areas,
but the mesh and it's points would be local enough to stand a chance being pushed around by an "envelope" without too many problems.

4) Surface Projection with Tangential Blending - Hard to describe: you have a circle hole in a curved surface and a smaller circle above it. You could blend the two with the shape blending into the
hole with a tangent. Like a super version of filleting. - NO WAIT - I think the Blend tool is supposed to do this, but all I get are the two line-up points and no blend lovin'... :-(
I wish MoI would tell me when something isn't going to work and nothing happens, like a red X or something... I think I read where you were tweaking the Blend tool.

5) ...and the thing that makes the mesh panels line up with curvature integrity that gets rid of the "panalized" look... though I'd throw that in the wish box. ;-)

But none the less - You've made a great product Michael, your attention to simplicity and detail shows. You're a one-man army.
Keep up the amazing work, and best of success in the V3 development stage.

Mike
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3628.142 In reply to 3628.141 
Hi Mike, I'm really glad that you're enjoying MoI so much! :)

Thanks for your feedback, and just a couple of notes on a couple of things:

> 3) Point Reduction - Primarily for curve paths, but could
> be applied to mesh surfaces. Often times a path is drawn
> and it would be nice to reduce the number of points that
> make it up.

Check out the Rebuild command for something like this for simplifying a curve:
http://moi3d.com/2.0/docs/moi_command_reference10.htm#rebuild

It basically reconstructs a curve by sampling points from it and building a new curve through those sampled points, and you can control some parameters for how many sampled points are used, and the method for the resampling (whether to use a fixed number of points or to use as many points as needed to achieve a particular distance tolerance between the new curve and the old one).


> 4) Surface Projection with Tangential Blending - Hard to describe:
> you have a circle hole in a curved surface and a smaller circle above it.
> You could blend the two with the shape blending into the
> hole with a tangent. Like a super version of filleting. - NO WAIT - I think
> the Blend tool is supposed to do this, but all I get are the two line-up
> points and no blend lovin'... :-(

It does sound like you want to use the Blend tool to get what you want here, but you need to extrude the smaller circle above out to a surface so you will have 2 edges to blend between.

Also you want to do the extrusion with end caps turned off so that the edges you are blending between are open edges.

So that would look something like this - here's a curved surface with a smaller circle above it:




Extrude the smaller circle upwards to make another surface:



It's also a good idea to either delete or hide the small circle curve at this point so that it does not get in your way for the next step, because you then want to select the surface edge, which is in exactly the same position as the generator circle, and you won't be able to target it when the original circle curve is sitting there.

So then select these 2 edges:



Then you can use Construct > Blend to create a blend surface between those edges.




So basically to construct a surface blend you do that between a selection of 2 surface edges - it was probably not working for you before because you had a selection of 1 surface edge and 1 curve object instead of 2 edges.

- Michael

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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
3628.143 
I LOVE it when I learn something new in MoI!!!!!

Thanks very much Michael!

I'll experiment with the reconstruct script...

So with this insight into the Blend tool, I tried to go for something a little more complex:
Curved edge to curved edge with a cylinder circle edge into an oval that was projected into the first blend...
Oooh yeah... ;-)





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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
3628.144 
Tried one harder - Thought I'd make a vent port like one that would exist on a sport car...

Made a curved mesh surface, then the shape of the port out of one single freeform spline.
It was projected to the surface, trimmed and deleted, leaving the new hole's with it's own native edges.
I copied the projected shape, moved it lower, scaled down, rotated and extruded it.

Then I wanted to blend between the two shapes... Nothing. The shapes had a lot of individual unconnected segments in it,
and Blend only wants to use whole, single curves that reside on surfaces.
I tried to Join these separate pieces into one curve, but since Joining makes it's own separate element, it defeated the purpose and I couldn't use Blend.
I'm not sure where I could've done something different to make two contiguous rings on their surfaces to Blend into a seamless transition.

What I constructed below was done in sections, but there are irregularities in the curvature and even chunks missing.
I take it, that since projecting a curve to a surface does not make a contiguous curve like unto the original shape, then I might not be able to use Blend on these elements.
I can use Network or Sweep to achieve like results, but the Blend tool offers that useful silky-smooth"Tangent" blending ability that is hard to get other ways.

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