Hi Michael,

>>Right now the Silhouette command does not create duplicates of edges that are silhouettes

Ok. That's true, but only with some View option. For instance, it produces a couple of "duplicated curves" on edges of simple box in case of View:Top option. Yes, the curves are actually in the different height, but only until exporting to AI...

>>The way AI export works, is it exports all curves and edges in the model as curves in the flattened AI file.

When using Export command? Nope. You have to use SaveAs command to export all curves and edges to AI. But I think the natural way to save only a part of object (e.g. outline) is using Export command and not SaveAs one. Especially, when there are selected curves after finishing Silhouette command and you "can't" manipulate the viewport without destroying the proper silhouette.


>>it would make it pretty easy to get duplicate curves if you just did a SaveAs to AI format.

Yes. On the other hand it is pretty easy to get "no" curves if you just do an Export to AI format.


>>I can probably put in an option for whether to duplicate edges that are silhouettes or not though

I guess it would be possible to just select all edges that are silhouettes and add them to the selection after Silhouette command finishes. After that it would be clear what curve/edge is intended to be exported to the AI file (and there will be no duplicated curve objects).



Well, I have rarely been satisfied with result of Silhouette command in Rhino as well. Maybe I have never fully understood the essential difference among the meaning of words: outline, silhouette, contour or boundary when talking about CG :)

I would expect these results doing silhouette:



...and optionally with hidden line detection (different line style or color or Style) in the future.

Petr

Hi Petr,

> For instance, it produces a couple of "duplicated curves"
> on edges of simple box in case of View:Top option. Yes, the
> curves are actually in the different height, but only until
> exporting to AI...

Yeah I saw that in a few cases - it seems to get slightly confused when a plane is exactly edge-on to an ortho view direction and ends up tracing the edges of those vertical planes as silhouettes.

I could probably screen those out, are they causing you a problem?


> When using Export command?

Sorry, I didn't mean the "Export" command specifically here, I was just referring more to general file I/O meaning writing a file out from MoI.


> Yes. On the other hand it is pretty easy to get "no" curves
> if you just do an Export to AI format.

Sorry, I'm not following this one - if you have nothing selected when you do an Export, it will prompt you to select objects before continuing.


> I would expect these results doing silhouette:

Well for example the edge that I've got outlined in red here is not a silhouette because both of the faces connected to it are forward facing.



A silhouette edge would be an edge where it is either connected to only a single face, or when connected to 2 faces one of them is forward facing and the other is backwards facing. That edge above would be a "visible" edge in a hidden-line removal drawing. But doing a full hidden line removal method is a lot more involved and complex than just silhouette generation.

This new Silhouette command just makes silhouettes and does not compute visibility stuff.


This one that you show here:



Is also probably not really feasible for this command, silhouettes are generated more at an individual face level so it does not know how to treat the "most forward" face differently from the "most behind" one like you are showing here. That would again be something that could be done with a much more involved hidden/visible line calculation instead.

- Michael

Hello,

After trying this a few times I haven't seen duplicate edges that are silhouettes. The Export command exports all curves and edges in the model as curves in the AI file for me. Perhaps it is because I have the model selected that I am exporting to AI after running the Silhouette command.

I try to think of it as the model being made of glass, even if I select a Top view I will still see the edges both at the top of the cube as well as the bottom of the cube in your example. That agrees with the results I am getting currently. I am assuming when MoI has hidden line removal what you are suggesting will be the case. Even with the Silhouette command you have to do some cleanup, but for me it is a giant leap forward for illustration purposes.

Hello,

Perhaps this pic will help:

View from left to right - 3D, Top, Front, Right... at least that is what it looks like to me when I export to AI and peel away the lines.

Hi Michael,

>>I could probably screen those out, are they causing you a problem?

Well, most people seem to be satisfied with this new Silhouette command and I will wait until full hidden line removal method will be added to meet my needs (or use Make2D command in Rhino).

>>Sorry, I'm not following this one - if you have nothing selected
>>when you do an Export, it will prompt you to select objects before continuing.

Yes, it is correct. I meant the situation when you run Export command immediately after finishing Silhouette command - there are usually some new curves generated by Silhouette command and so only these selected curves are exported without prompting for picking additional objects.

Petr

Hi OSTexo, the first image in the row you show



is the result of Silhouette command with option View:3D ? I don't think so. -Petr

Hi Michael,

The silhouette function works fine in conjunction with the ai export, nice clean lines are generated.
This is quite cool for simple models, at least all the information is there in 3d views.

But new users will probably not figure this trick out intuitively, that's why I was inclined to think it should be included in the AI export module.

Marc

Hello,

My mistake, you are correct. In the first example model it is actually blank since all the edges are accounted for already. Perhaps a better model pic to illustrate how the 3D option behaves:

Almost forget, thanks a lot for the image background enhancements ! I can just setup my background without having to pre-build geomtery as snapping helper ! Great !!!

Here's the script copier utility for this new Oct-19-2009 beta release.

You can download and run this utility which will copy over any custom plug-in commands that you may have added in MoI v1 over to the new v2 beta's install folder.

It's just a shortcut for copying files from the v1 \commands sub-folder to the new \commands sub-folder.

- Michael

Hi Michael,



>>the object that was selected first will be used to set the properties on the new combined parent object.

Does _the properties_ mean also the Style? E.g. I have two spheres with different styles (blue and red) assigned to them. Now I run boolean union command and select blue sphere first, then red. The result is a blob with different styles of faces while I expected a blue blob.
Note that for curves (boolean union, join) it works like expected.



Also I think that style assignment doesn't work properly with setting:
[Styles]
GeneratedObjectsInheritStyle=n

In case of booleaning solids (without order, just window selection) or joining surfaces or using Planar command to cap a hole it doesn't apply the active style to generated objects, it still applies the style of "parent" object or leaves a sub-object style. This setting seems to be linked only with curve input object(?)

On the other hand, with setting:
[Styles]
GeneratedObjectsInheritStyle=y
DisableSubObjectStyles=n

if you extrude two touching curves with different styles you get a polysurface with the same style of faces!




Petr

Thanks so much for the scriptcopier with every release! One less frustration in life. ;-)

Hi Petr,

> Does _the properties_ mean also the Style?

Yes, but it's referring to the style of the parent object for that case, which you will not actually see come into effect until you do something like a fillet afterwards.


> E.g. I have two spheres with different styles (blue and red)
> assigned to them. Now I run boolean union command and
> select blue sphere first, then red. The result is a blob with
> different styles of faces while I expected a blue blob.

Actually the combined blue + red blob is the intended result there, unless you have set DisableSubObjectStyles=y in moi.ini .

With DisableSubObjectStyles=n (which is the default), it is intended that faces inherit the same styles as their original inputs, like any piece that comes as a cut off piece from a blue face will have style=blue in the combined object. When this is the case, when you selected the blue sphere first that does not mean that all faces will shift to become blue in the result, it means that just the parent object's style (which you do not directly see on the screen) will be set to blue.

That parent style though can come through when you apply a fillet.

So for example if you select the blue sphere first and then apply a fillet you get this result (newly created fillet face is blue):



If you select the red sphere first and then apply a fillet you will get this result (newly created fillet face is red):




But if you want to get the result that you were expecting where all the faces converted over to have the same style as the first selected one, that is possible by setting:
[Styles]
DisableSubObjectStyles=y


> Also I think that style assignment doesn't work properly with setting:
> [Styles]
> GeneratedObjectsInheritStyle=n

This only comes into play when there are completely brand new entire objects generated from input curves, things like extrude, sweep, etc...

It is not used for situations where pieces of previously existing geometry are directly a part of the result object like with booleans or join for example.


I will take a look at Planar/Cap though, it does not seem to be working as expected but the booleans and join seem to be.


> if you extrude two touching curves with different styles you
> get a polysurface with the same style of faces!

Yeah, I guess that is a bug - the resulting extrusion will only use a style from one of the input objects that make up the result brep, it will use the one that happened to be first in the list of curves to process for that case.

Unfortunately that is probably not going to be a bug that gets fixed because to fix it would mean rewriting the geometry library's extrusion function to maintain a more granular relationship between individual curve segments and the faces that they generate.

In practice it doesn't seem to likely that will be a major issue that is run into that often though.

- Michael

Hi Petr, there was a bug in styles handling which could easily be run into with the Planar command when capping holes.

If the new capped face was only surrounded by a single neighboring face (like when capping a cylinder hole for example), that would not take on the neighboring face's style like it was supposed to.

You don't really run into that with filleting, since a fillet goes between 2 other faces, but you could run into it pretty easily with Planar for end caps.

That's fixed up for the next beta.

I'll see if I can make a bit clearer description for you about how the style assignment works for new faces like with Fillet, it is based on some of the previous discussion here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2843.37

- Michael

Hi Petr, here is a bit more description on how the style assignment for new faces is supposed to work. This is for cases like with Fillet where there is an already existing object that is being modified with new pieces getting created inside of it.

Say we have a shape like this which is 1 solid but is colored with 2 different styles on different faces:



Now say you select these edges and Fillet:



If the new fillet pieces are surrounded on all sides by faces which all have the same style, then the fillets will take on that style as well, like this:




So that makes things like fillets try to adapt themselves to whatever styles are predominant in a particular localized area of your model.

If the new faces are surrounded by multiple different styles instead of one consistent one, then in that case it will use the parent object's style for the new faces. That's the one that will get set by the first selected object when you do a boolean, or also you can set it manually by holding down shift when clicking on a style swatch with the solid selected.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

>>If the new faces are surrounded by multiple different styles instead of one
>>consistent one, then in that case it will use the parent object's style for the new faces.

So parent object style in this case is only somewhat like "implicit flag" which say "apply this style in a particular cases of my subsequent modification".

Petr

Hi Petr,

> So parent object style in this case is only somewhat
> like "implicit flag" which say "apply this style in a
> particular cases of my subsequent modification".

Yup, that sounds like a good description.

Kind of like the "default style for this object" to be used in ambiguous cases in further edits.

It's the style that is assigned to the parent brep object which is kind of like the container object for all the faces and edges of a solid.


So in addition to the other ways for how it gets set that I mentioned before (like first selected object in a boolean or holding shift when clicking a style swatch), if you just simply select a solid with 1 click so it has "whole object" selection, when you then set a style at that point it will set the style on the parent object and all sub-objects all together to the same style. So most of the time that will probably be the way that it gets set initially.

- Michael

Hi Petr, so one other note - trying to do something with the active style for these situations doesn't really work very well.

For example imagine if all new faces that got added to a brep just used the active style, that would mean if you had something like this:



Then if you selected all 3 of those at once and ran Fillet, it just is weird to apply one single style to all the new fillet pieces because there isn't only one that will match each object well.

It would end up with things like this:




- Michael

Hi Michael,



It means this will be another case when the parent style is changing somehow unintentionally? But I think it will be ok.

Petr

Hi Petr,

> It means this will be another case when the parent style
> is changing somehow unintentionally? But I think it will
> be ok.

Actually that shift+control should not make any difference for whether the parent object style will change or not.

The parent object will get set if you had a solid that had "whole object selection" on it (selected by the first single click before any drill-down), whether you had shift+control down or nothing down.

The other special "shift to set parent object only" only applies if you have shift all by itself down and not also control along with it.

- Michael