thx Have a cool weekend of "debuging" or coding or relaxing :)

Thanks Pilou! :)

Some news complaints and info :)
System of group and hide something like that


And something seems ennuyous with the "grid"
An "infinite grid"on 2D views will be cool :)
When you change the numbers, scale change also :(
or maybe you have a"trick"?


Info about the process of creation of "Letter" in Moi after import "lines"
("back" are "fileted") is there loops inside?
http://www.zbrush.fr/phpBB2//download.php?id=1045"/img"">http://www.zbrush.fr/phpBB2//download.php?id=1045
2 meg rar file 3dm
Chamfer on a path = chamfer on a curve
Like a filet on a curve (2D)
Seems don't work with a chamfer? (missed something? )


Another thing when you choose "Chamfer" (in normal volumes use) and Input the 2 dimensions
Snapping grid seems disable ( I suppose for the dimension with decimal point but...:)

Ps A "circular" cursor resizable for select points when some numerous "show points" is enable :)
Useful for modify a complex volume! (a "drag circle"?

> System of group and hide something like that

I see how the group works there, but I don't understand how the hide is different than MoI's hide, can he explain a little bit more about how the hide works differently there?


> And something seems ennuyous with the "grid"
> An "infinite grid"on 2D views will be cool :)
> When you change the numbers, scale change also :(
> or maybe you have a"trick"?

It looks like he just wants to make the grid extend out more - to do this, go to the Grid options, and change the "Grid sections" setting to something like 300 or 400. Don't make it too huge - if you make it something like 10,000 or more it might slow down the screen drawing.

This makes the grid extend out further, but keeps the scale of one grid square to be the same. If you change the "Grid size" setting, that will change the scale of one individual square of the grid.

Let me know if this doesn't make sense.


> Info about the process of creation of "Letter" in Moi after import "lines"
> ("back" are "fileted") is there loops inside?

Nope, no loops on this one. It looks like the font is different, the church text is narrower and taller than this. The bug probably only happens with some specific shapes, that's why it would be useful if he could send the original curves from that church model (if he has them around), it would probably be easier to reproduce the problem using those same curves.


> Chamfer on a path = chamfer on a curve
> Like a filet on a curve (2D)
> Seems don't work with a chamfer? (missed something? )

Ah I see, yes I forgot to enable chamfer for internal corners of a single curve when I added it for fillet. This was easy to turn on, it will be fixed for the next beta. In the meantime a workaround is to separate the rectangle into individual lines, then chamfer them two-by-two. Right now chamfer will work on curves, but only between 2 separate curves, not on a single joined one.


> Another thing when you choose "Chamfer" and Input the 2 dimensions
> Snapping grid seems disable ( I Suppose for the dimension with decimal but...:)

I can't seem to repeat this over here - for example, draw a box, select it and do chamfer. Now pick two points to define the first distance, grid snap is working ok for me here. Are you doing something different?

Thanks for all the reports and information, Pilou!

- Michael

< I can't seem to repeat this over here - for example, draw a box, select it and do chamfer. Now pick two points to define the first distance, grid snap is working ok for me here. Are you doing something different?

yes I pick my 2 points "directly" on the "up edges" of the box!
So snap grid seems disable :)
Sorry I am not an orthodox user :D

ps Seems cool trick for the "grid Section":)

> yes I pick my 2 points "directly" on the "up edges" of the box!

Ah, I see.

But this is a feature, not a bug! :)

Object snap takes priority over grid snap, so if you have object snap enabled and you move over an edge, you should see a bit of text "On". This is showing that the "On" object snap has found an edge to snap on.

If you don't want to snap on the edge and instead only the grid, you'll have to turn object snap off temporarily with the toggle at the bottom of the screen.

It kind of has to work this way, because if grid snap had priority you would only ever snap to the grid since there are usually so many grid points visible on the screen.

- Michael

So I kind of guessed what your next question might be - it would be nice if it was possible to find intersections between an edge and the grid, and have those points available. I think that is what you were really expecting?

This is unfortunately somewhat difficult to achieve with the general case of curvy shapes since there are so many grid lines. It is likely to cause a performance slowdown problem. That's why I have not attempted to do that.

- Michael

Don't worry about that :)
It was just that appear "evident" (for me:) to draw the chamfer directly on the Box for pick dimensions :D
I very well understand that will be a task to code that with any slowdown :)
So again don't worry with that :)
Each user can find his own way, who is inevitably not the same way of the conceptor :)
I can pick my points elsewhere on the grid for entiere dimension :)

Ps
The separate edges'curve for "Chamfer" works like a charm!
Just "re join" after and that's make the trick :)

Pss Silly Question : After a Chamfer or a Filet of an object "Show Points" don't work!
Is that normal? (I am a little tired with this winter / summer hours changes:)
I must separate again for show it!

Sorry any chance to refound original "form curves" of letters and functions employed : files 3dm go to the trash bin ! :(
Have you seen the "how to make a church video" for the Arch looping?
http://forum.steph3d.net/index.php?topic=186.0

Difference "hide" between Hexagon MoI is that you can "unhide" object one by one !
Useful when you have a lot of object :)

An undo / Redo for the selection :)
When you select 50 lines(object)...if one miss all is to redo :D

Another thing : here bottom windows are "reclosed" but drawings stay alive and imposible to erase it!
So a "cleaner tool" for old drawings :)
Video who show a boolean union with persistant lines!
http://stephlx.free.fr/MoI/bool.avi
But for me (Pilou, all works cool) see the image

But not in this one :(

But If I remake an another that works again!

Ps Have you some plan for a "reccording script" of all actions when objects are modelized?
For replay the creation as a pedagogic and funny way :)

With all this thrad time of developpment will be * 3 :)

Pss For a grammatical point does the word "complaint" is convenient for you or "request" seems better?
(I can't change the title of the topic when I edit it)

> Pss Silly Question : After a Chamfer or a Filet of an object "Show Points" don't work!
> Is that normal? (I am a little tired with this winter / summer hours changes:)
> I must separate again for show it!

It's normal - it is a limitation of how NURBS work. You can only turn on points for an object with joined surfaces, if all the surfaces have the same control point structure along their common edges, and the common edges must be "natural edges" of the surface, not trimmed edges.

When you have a trimmed surface (which is the result after a chamfer or fillet operation), the control points of the underlying surface are different than the structure of the edge. This is what is really different between NURBS modeling and polygon modeling - in polygon modeling the edges you see are always the edges of the surfaces that are involved (they are one and the same). This is not always the case with NURBS modeling, here is an example:



Here the surface is a simple plane made up of 4 control points. The plane has a trim curve on it that trims away a portion of it. But the points that make up the trim curve don't define the surface, the surface is controlled just by the 4 surface points.

That's why in general you can't manipulate NURBS surfaces by dragging their edges as you would in a polygon modeling program - trimmed edges define regions of the surface but do not define the shape of the surface itself, if that makes any sense.

But on the other hand, this method of defining a surface is the reason why booleans with NURBS is so tremendously better than with polygons - every time you do a boolean or a trim, the surface stays exactly the same and just new trim curves are calculated. It's much more of a "nondestructive" type of operation. You can even recover the original surface by removing the trims later on if you wish. With polygon modelers, when you do a boolean it generates a tremendous number of new facets all over the place, the complexity of your object starts to increase dramatically.

So now imagine that I have another surface attached to the trim curve of that plane - for example an extrusion of the trim curve. This second surface has a totally different set of control points than the plane does. If I allowed you to turn on the points for such a joined set of surfaces, it would be really easy for you to grab one of the points and pull it such that it created a gap between what used to be a shared edge. This is why such point editing is not allowed, it is too easy for it to create gaps between shared edges.

Please let me know if any of this doesn't make sense.

This understanding of how trimmed surfaces work is really a key idea in understanding why NURBS modeling does not follow the same type of face/edge/point dragging as poly modelers. It's a very different structure and they have very different ways of working. Each way has its own particular strengths and weaknesses.

- Michael

> Have you seen the "how to make a church video" for the Arch looping?
> http://www.steph3d.net/Dossier/Ressources/TutsVideo/MoI-Archi.php

I saw it just briefly, I haven't had a chance to go through the steps myself yet. (By the way these videos are really cool, it's definitely easier to see them in Flash than using that special codec).

One thing I noticed - there is a portion where he moves some of the control points around.

One thing you kind of have to be careful of is to not move control points such that two points of a single smooth curve segment become stacked up exactly on top of each other. This sort of degrades the smoothness of the curve and it will probably cause problems for more advanced operations such as surface/surface intersection later on.


> Difference "hide" between Hexagon MoI is that you can "unhide" object one by one !
> Useful when you have a lot of object :)

I see. So when you go to unhide, it temporarily shows the hidden objects, lets you pick some of them and then only shows those particular ones, is that correct?

This would have a side effect of making unhide take an extra step. I'm a little worried that it might make it confusing for people who are just hiding a couple of objects. But I can see that it would make it much more powerful. I'll give it a try and see what it feels like after the mesh stuff is completed.

- Michael

> A new video for show that when you select many objects,
> that became more slowly! Not with the camera moves but
> when there is a "multiple selection" !

Ah I see - this is when doing a transformation, such as dragging.

Yeah, this area is quite a bit different than just the regular display such as when moving the camera, it will be possible to optimize this part quite a bit more in the future.

If he can post the model he was showing somewhere, it would be useful for me to use when I get a chance to work on this.

- Michael

As some people are interested to make architecture with your prog, ( dixit Steph),
it will a good thing to have the 6 classic views!
So just miss Back, Left, Bottom :)
It's not the normal use of a nurbs modeler but why not change that :)

> An undo / Redo for the selection :)
> When you select 50 lines(object)...if one miss all is to redo :D

This is on my list already. :) It will probably happen in a beta after image planes and arrays are implemented.


> Another thing : here bottom windows are "reclosed" but drawings stay alive
> and imposible to erase it!
> So a "cleaner tool" for old drawings :)

Can he post a model that shows this problem?

The videos and screenshots are great, but many times it would also be quite helpful to get a model along with them. The model gives me something that I can examine in much more detail. Some problems are also dependent on very small factors such as the position or shapes of objects, so they can sometimes be hard to recreate just by looking at a video.


> Video who show a boolean union with persistant lines!

These lines look like they are just edges where some surfaces are joined to each other. This is not necessarily a really unusual thing, imagine if you draw 3 planes and move them so they have a common edge, then use "Join" to join them together at their edges - this will create an object that has some interior edges, even though it is all one flat shape. This is likely what you have here.

But the boolean union is supposed to try and combine planes together to simplify the end result, for some reason that is not happening in some cases. If you can post a model that shows this, it would help to track it down and see if the plane-combining mechanism can be improved. A quick way to fix this is to select those faces that you don't want, do delete to remove them, then select the object and do Construct/Planar to fill in the planar hole with a new single clean plane.


> Ps Have you some plan for a "reccording script" of all actions when
> objects are modelized? For replay the creation as a pedagogic and funny way :)

There is a plan for something similar to this in the future, but not for V1 though.



> With all this thrad time of developpment will be * 3 :)

:) That's ok, this information is very important for me to get, it is of great help to me. It takes time but it helps me do more intelligent work in the future to improve the program. So it is time well spent.


> Pss For a grammatical point does the word "complaint" is convenient
> for you or "request" seems better?

:) In English "complaint" is maybe kind of negative, "request" is more polite. But don't worry Pilou, I don't take any offense, I understand you just fine which is what I really care about! :)

- Michael

here the 3dm "bugs" http://www.zbrush.fr/phpBB2//download.php?id=1055
architecture windows persistant (the rectangular block for closed the window by Boolean union) a rectangle persist!


and stairs (if you take the volumes to add, depending of their order, persistant lines are not the same!!

Ps like the volume "the wall + windows" above, does exist a reasonable limit of the numbers of windows(objects)
to booleanize ?(difference) (one by one or all in a same pass)

A translation in french of your lesson can be view here :)
http://forums.polyloop.net/showpost.php?p=108807&postcount=86