Somebody will say this is not a good example---I want to fit the cube object to the background oblong size/location.?

In say Carrara I can do that without moving away from that small gizmo in the center of the cube.

Hi Michael,

That symmetrical kind of editing a control points is fantastic!

What currently happens if I click & release a mouse on the rotate icon?

And is there also a "feature" which allow mirroring/flipping when you drag the point cursor from one corner frame widget towards one of the opposite one like for background image manipulation?


Petr

It may be me wishfull thinking!

But I must make my point.
(ps- the gizmo works in relation to selected or grouped points, et, etc)

The difference between clicking to select an item in MoI compared with my normal click on an item in Carrara.

(I don't think my idea is going to win but I tried!)

> What currently happens if I click & release a mouse on the rotate icon?

At the moment nothing, I don't have any kind of rotation working on this one yet.

But I would like to show a tri-ball rotater like the background images have, but with the additional feature of being able to have a grabbable center point so you can move the center of rotation when in tri-ball mode.


> And is there also a "feature" which allow mirroring/flipping when
> you drag the point cursor from one corner frame widget towards
> one of the opposite one like for background image manipulation?

At the moment no - but I had a feeling you weren't going to let me get away without doing this... :)

I've been looking over a few different 2D apps and this isn't really consistent between them, some allow mirroring and some don't do it.

- Michael

Hi Brian,

> Somebody will say this is not a good example---I want to fit
> the cube object to the background oblong size/location.?

I intend to have a different set of orientation tools that will handle matching orientations like this.

Once the orientations are aligned, you can match sizes using the Transform/Scale1D command.

- Michael

Hi Brian,

> Michael have you used it in the 2d views of say Carrara?
> Yes I would like it in Illustrator or whatever.

I gave it a try in the 2d views in Carrara vertex room.

I just can't imagine how this would replace the editing frame in Illustrator... Things that work great for the 3D manipulation view seem very strange and arbitrary to me when focusing on the 2D view only.

Like having it on a circle - grabbing the center of the circle scales it?

It has a very asymmetrical appearance, a big arrow to the right and an arrow downward, a kind of rectangle piece hanging off on only one quadrant... Again - great for 3D but in 2D only it seems very strange... Sorry.

But I'm not ruling out doing something along these lines for the 3D view in the future at some point. It just is not a fit with what I am focusing on at the moment here which is more 2D like behavior.

- Michael

Michael.

For interest, I manipulated the square and the lettering, in the 2D space of the Carrara Assembly Room. (Not the Vertex Room) As in the attachment)

I then tried to do the same manipulations in MoI, Photoshop and Illustrator--to compare.

I think I would like to do a lot in Carrara and then take to those other apps--maybe?

I am mainly, from the first, a photoshop person in CG--I would love a Carrara widget! (And I remember when we got it in Carrara! (Is the Universal Manipulator still only in the Pro version?))


Enough from me anyway. It was a lesson in how one tends to accept what is the "norm" in an individual apps working proceedures.

Brian

[Quote]
Hi Steve,

> obviously not good documentation/ step-by-step if:-

Unfortunately it just isn't possible for me to force people to read the documentation.

Some people don't read the documentation, and for those people it doesn't matter how good the documentation is.

Definitely experience tells me that documentation, although certainly helpful to many many users, is not a direct replacement for making the software easier and more expected to use.

Believe me, my job would be a lot easier if it was!

- Michael
[Quote]

As someone who has been working in the Technical Publications sphere for 30 years now I can sympathize with your position. I also had a stint as an interface and interaction designer for a few years too and your goal of making the software work as expected is, IMHO, exactly right.

Keep up the good work.

I hope something can be figured out cause I'm of the opinion that an origin is important as well - sometimes you want to quickly stretch an object from its base or orbit an object around some other object or arbitrary point.

Yes I realize that you can use the command tools for that but the goal with this widget is for speed and free form construction and I'm used to a pivot being an option there (I'm a Fireworks and CorelDraw user...)

I can't think of too many more features right now (without looking at other apps I guess) but I'd love for MOI to have some of the best curve drawing and construction tools available!

At one point I was using MOI to create drawings but without being able to color and change line widths, it wasn't quite feasible. I guess this is one reason why I'd love to see the curve booleans so much too...

How far do you plan on taking the curves toolset? "Just enough" in support of object construction or do you plan on MOI being more than a 3D modeler?

In other words, perhaps support a minimal amount of 2D drawing as well?

-Will

Quick video example of Illustrator origin movement for rotation & scale.

Hmmm... you have to launch the command by clicking toolbar icon before you can scale or rotate those object!
I guess the main goal to use a widget style of manipulating is allow users to do such manipulation directly without picking any command button first.

Petr

Welp, that's what I'm looking for - definitely good enough for me - that pivot is hella important!

Yes, it was already determined that Illy uses a seperate command for the rotate etc., not all graphics apps do that however...


-Will

Tools Moi rotation, scale, seems yet some cool ;)
And permit to make that seen on the video ;)

Hi Dan,

> Quick video example of Illustrator origin movement for rotation & scale.

Yup, but in the example there you show the dedicated scale and rotate tools in Illustrator. That's an extra step (trip to the toolbar) to go into those special modes.

In MoI the equivalent of those are the Transform/Rotate and Transform/Scale commands.

What I'm trying to work on here is an editing frame that is always available right as soon as you select objects, you don't have to go to a special mode to use them. This is more similar to the bounding box frame that you get in Illustrator when you are using the Selection (arrow) tool. In Illustrator, scaling by using the bounding box inside the selection tool does not allow you to place an origin point.

- Michael

Hi Will,

> Yes, it was already determined that Illy uses a seperate
> command for the rotate etc., not all graphics apps do that however...

Actually, Illustrator does allow for scaling and rotating from selection mode without using those special tools. But the dedicated tools allow setting the origin point which you can't do using the quick bounding box grips.

- Michael

Hi Will,

> and I'm used to a pivot being an option there (I'm a
> Fireworks and CorelDraw user...)

I was testing CorelDraw over here, and I can see how you can move the rotation pivot when you flip the grips into being rotation style grips, but I can't find any way to change the scaling origin when scaling using the bounding frame.

I'm using CorelDraw 12 - is this something that was added in a newer version?


> In other words, perhaps support a minimal amount of 2D drawing as well?

Yup, I would like to do this. But progress towards that will kind of happen in a few bits and pieces over time. This editing frame is one bit - then being able to set color and line width/style would be another step.

It probably won't ever have a complete toolset (with a full gradient editor, etc...) but I think it will end up being able to do some basic stuff.

Currently MoI is only focused on geometry design. In the future I generally expect to add what I call "communication" type features that help you show your design to other people, that will include some stuff like rendering, annotation, dimensions, line styles, etc.. so that's generally where this would fit in.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

Actually you can spec. pivot point in Illustrator with a bounding box, limitation is it's only to the 9 presets
shown in short video attached.


I see your point about making this as simple to use as possible but even with the bounding box in Illustrator
it doesn't take long to out-grow it's usefullness when working on anything but simple tasks.

I know you will come up with something great, I'm just putting in my 2 cents.

""annotation, dimensions, line styles, etc.. ""

Yes Please!!!


The selection frame tool look interesting.

I also think that an anchor point would be great for quick adjustments, but in the same time I imagine that it could be difficult to integrate in a simple and non-obstructive way.
Would each selection would retain their center?

Other thoughts: While dragging the corner handles, some kind of snapping could appear when objects crosses other geometry entities. Also, maybe the center gizmo could also snap to objects.

Regards,

Marc

Hi Dan,

> Actually you can spec. pivot point in Illustrator with a bounding
> box, limitation is it's only to the 9 presets shown in short video
> attached.

That is definitely interesting, but if I follow the video correctly, you are again showing a dedicated transform tool which you clicked in the toolbar to activate. Similar to the dedicated rotate or scale tools, this is also another different tool than just the selection tool (solid arrow at the top of the toolbar).

The part that I am working on currently is not a dedicated tool that you launch but something that is always available during selection mode, it is more like what you get when you use that solid arrow selection tool in Illustrator.

You can use MoI's existing dedicated scale or rotation tools to perform similar functions to what you show in your video.


> I see your point about making this as simple to use as possible but
> even with the bounding box in Illustrator it doesn't take long to
> out-grow it's usefullness when working on anything but simple tasks.

Right, that's why Illustrator provides more than just that simple tool for doing transforms.

MoI is similar - already in version 1.0 MoI provides the more complete tools for scaling or rotating around any point you specify. Those are available currently under the Transform palette on the right side pane. What it is missing is something really quick for handling simple adjustments without needing to go to the toolbar to launch a specific command.

That's what this new frame is intended to provide.

The new frame is not meant to handle all situations, that's what the existing commands already do - it is more intended to just handle more simple things.

- Michael

Hi Marc,

> Other thoughts: While dragging the corner handles, some kind of
> snapping could appear when objects crosses other geometry entities.

Yup, it actually works this way - you can snap on to any point you can normally snap on to when dragging that handle. That will scale the object to put the edge of its bounding box going through that point.


> Also, maybe the center gizmo could also snap to objects.

I am going to try to do this for the "tri-ball" rotation mode.

- Michael