MOI mesh export issue
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 From:  rom 24 Aug 2024  (6 of 49) 
11521.6 In reply to 11521.5 

unsurprisingly, higher poly count (815 faces per one fillet) helps to neutralize artifacts.
this is the close up of the default obj inside max:
https://imgur.com/a/dJUXqE9
Forgive me but its a bad topology, I see a lot of room for improvement (getting rid of perpendicular triangles (in blue) could be a good starting point (plasticity's default example proves its doable)
P.S. Here's a promo of some max plugin which bridges edges with non-equal segment number without perpendicular triangles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBid27gDRM

EDITED: 24 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Aug 2024  (7 of 49) 
11521.7 In reply to 11521.6 
It's not bad topology, it's automatically generated topology which will render with absolutely no artifacts (as clearly shown above in numerous apps) as long as you don't discard the vertex normals.

You've either accidentally turned off loading of vertex normals, or maybe you're doing some operation on the mesh that is discarding them.

As long as you render with the vertex normals that come from the original CAD data, every triangle will be shaded the same as the originating CAD surface.


> unsurprisingly, higher poly count (815 faces per one fillet) helps to neutralize artifacts.

This again has to do with vertex normals - vertex normals generated by averaging polygon face normals tends to work better if the faces are more evenly sized.

The solution is to use the high quality vertex normals instead of having them generated from the polygons.

You can have any kind of topology or polygon structure without any artifacts if the stored vertex normals are used. It's the number 1 most important thing to get high quality renders from CAD converted data.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Aug 2024  (8 of 49) 
11521.8 In reply to 11521.6 
re:
> (plasticity's default example proves its doable)

Maybe you hadn't done whatever you're doing that eliminates stored vertex normals when you did the plasticity test.

You will definitely get shading artifacts out of plasticity's output as well if you discard vertex normals there too.

- Michael
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 From:  rom 24 Aug 2024  (9 of 49) 
11521.9 In reply to 11521.7 
Thank you, Mickael
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 From:  PaQ 24 Aug 2024  (10 of 49) 
11521.10 


I couldn't resist, but Plasticity mesher is really far behind MoI. (Plasti Left, MoI right, around 5500 pts budget, default settings)
I only care about Ngones output because I don't want to deal with micro triangles later on.
Plasti does create many weird stuffs, like those doubles edges, strange edges alignment ... I have the feeling ngones output 'just' try to post merge coplanar triangles or something.

Of course as Michael explains, the topo is not that important as both geo here render the same.
However when it comes to geometry manipulation (uv unwarping, sub-material assignement), MoI ngones are freaking crisp.

(There is still a lot of misunderstanding about what constitutes 'good' topology for users coming from purely polygonal modeling, as they are accustomed to creating evenly quad-dominant meshes to combat issues with average normal computation)

EDITED: 24 Aug 2024 by PAQ
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 From:  Michael Gibson 24 Aug 2024  (11 of 49) 
11521.11 In reply to 11521.10 
Hi PaQ,

re:
> I have the feeling ngones output 'just' try to post merge coplanar triangles or something.

It certainly looks like it's doing something like that. It seems like it has a tendency to get a kind of diagonal skew effect in the last connections approaching a trim edge. It kind of feels like hair that won't comb out straight. Like it's got split ends.

MoI's mesher generates N-gons natively as part of the meshing process. If you want triangles it still generates n-gons initially internally and then the n-gons are triangulated.


re:
> as they are accustomed to creating evenly quad-dominant meshes to combat issues
> with average normal computation

The other thing that drives this is using all quads with edge flow structure for sub-d modeling.

They get used to hearing over and over that they need to use all quads for their sub-d models and then that gets extended to everything needs to be all quads no matter what is being done.

- Michael
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 From:  rom 25 Aug 2024  (12 of 49) 
11521.12 
Usually those settings (on the left)
avoid smaller than=3 and aspect ratio limit=2
allow me to get kinda tolerable topology but create excessive polygons (light blue) and long triangles marked in green which I can suppress with Max's Welder modifier.
BTW is it possible to add weld radius value next to "weld vertices along edges"?
I dream one day the FBX Exporter would generate a cleaner output similar to Smooth Bridge (the example on the right)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBid27gDRM

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  Michael Gibson 25 Aug 2024  (13 of 49) 
11521.13 In reply to 11521.12 
Hi rom,

> allow me to get kinda tolerable topology but create excessive polygons (light blue) and
> long triangles marked in green which I can suppress with Max's Welder modifier.

Ok, but I hope you understand now that there is no difference in render quality from doing this.


re:
> BTW is it possible to add weld radius value next to "weld vertices along edges"?

The welding option is for whether to make single shared vertex on edges between 2 surfaces, or whether each surface should have separate vertices stacked on top of each other along their joined edges.

A radius value would be a pretty different thing, more like a polygon post processing operation.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson 25 Aug 2024  (14 of 49) 
11521.14 In reply to 11521.12 
There's also an option you can set in moi.ini CentroidTriangulation=y which will triangulate n-gons with an alternate method by adding in a centroid point.

It could give you less skinny triangles.

Some more description in this thread:
https://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=8109.1

- Michael
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 From:  rom 25 Aug 2024  (15 of 49) 
11521.15 In reply to 11521.13 
>>>Ok, but I hope you understand now that there is no difference in render quality from doing this.

You hope in vain :)
This is DEFAULT obj from MOI with some carpaint and hdri. I'm afraid I DO see problems in renders, not matte viewport screenshots.
Can't you see how bad those perpendicular triangles are?

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  rom 25 Aug 2024  (16 of 49) 
11521.16 In reply to 11521.15 

and this is DEFAULT obj from plasticity without perpendicular triangles.
I don't know how else to demonstrate they are bad and this issue need to be addressed

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  rom 25 Aug 2024  (17 of 49) 
11521.17 
Ngoned default obj from MOI. 1000 tris for one fillet

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  val2 25 Aug 2024  (18 of 49) 
11521.18 
I use blender/cycles regularly. I build in moi and send the files over to blender. I'm attaching your test model. I gave it a metal material and lit it with a hdri. the export as a mesh is default.
http://www.photorealistic-rendering.com//
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 From:  Michael Gibson 25 Aug 2024  (19 of 49) 
11521.19 In reply to 11521.15 
Hi rom, what happens if you edit moi.ini (Options > General > "Edit .ini file" button) and set CentroidTriangulation=y then export with Output: Quads & Triangles, does that get rid of the offending triangles?

Can you describe a bit more about how you are doing the import, like which file format you are using and are you doing any editing of the model after the import?

- Michael
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 From:  PaQ 25 Aug 2024  (20 of 49) 
11521.20 
Actually rom was right about those micro triangles render problem, I never notice it because those "glitches" are really limited when using Ngones export tho. (It might depend of the render engine or the way internal triangulation is respected ?).

Using CentroidTriangulation=y completely fix the problem here, less pleasant topo (visually) but perfect triangulated render mesh.


centroid off vs centroid on.
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 From:  PaQ 25 Aug 2024  (21 of 49) 
11521.21 
However the centroid triangulation option doesn't seems to help when using ngones export (.FBX). It looks like the internal triangulation (middle picture) can still produce this little nasty triangles.
Here's a first fix (Houdini) to 'correctly' triangulate those ngones. However I have to admit I have no clue what a 'centroid triangulation' is ... So I used the uv's as geometry position, triangulate it using a special "avoid small angle" in Houdini, and I restore the geometry position (while keeping vertex normals safe).

Gallery

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 From:  rom 25 Aug 2024  (22 of 49) 
11521.22 

@Michael everything is default really (both export and import) - you could post your default obj mesh and I will show you. Or, even better: in C4D assign metallic material, get closer and to the fillet and play with light direction. IDK how one could expect good results with such a problematic topology.
I'll try the the .ini trick tomorrow..
@PaQ at last Haleluya, thank you for confirming!
With Ngons situation is really bad (post 18), with triangulation - better (p#15)
@val2 you are fine because of the distance and maybe higher poly count, get closer to the fillet area, rotate the light and see what those triangles do.

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  PaQ 25 Aug 2024  (23 of 49) 
11521.23 In reply to 11521.22 
Hey Rom, well I never notice that problem (in such extreme way) using Ngones with Houdini + Karma/3Delgiht/Mantra. So chances are it's also a matter of file format + DCC/Render Engine.
(.FBX is probably better to use to deal with Ngones ?). But you are right that using MoI tris export without that centroid (.ini) option "on" produce very nasty connections that result into odd reflection.

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by PAQ
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 From:  rom 25 Aug 2024  (24 of 49) 
11521.24 In reply to 11521.23 

>>>So chances are it's also a matter of file format + DCC/Render Engine.
(.FBX is probably better to use to deal with Ngones ?)

Bad mesh is bad in any DCC. MOI's export preview is rather schematic and hides the bare truth :)
On attached pic: The default triangulated fbx inside Sketchup without any fancy metallic shader.
You know where I see TONS of those ugly fillets? On furniture manufacturers sites like Vondom, Kettal, B&B etc.. They design their master pieces in NURBS programs like Rhino and then translate models with defaults settings to FBX\OBJ\3DS - the results are awful almost on any fillet.
I really hope Michael could find some elegant solution..

EDITED: 25 Aug 2024 by ROM
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 From:  Michael Gibson 25 Aug 2024  (25 of 49) 
11521.25 In reply to 11521.22 
Hi rom, when you export with n-gons, there aren't any triangles stored in the file. The receiving application will generate its own triangulation of the n-gon, or with FBX it's possible to use triangulation from the FBX library code which is what tends to make FBX have more uniform behavior.

I wonder if your render engine and current settings are particularly sensitive to skinny triangles.

Does your renderer use raytraced shadows? What happens if you turn that off, do the darkest spots go away?

- Michael
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