由复杂扭曲的管道为例,说明moi存在的核心问题(Taking complex twisted pipelines as an example, illustrate the core issues of moi)
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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.1 














各位,大家好:
简单来说,就是无论用什么方法在moi中都无法做出一条空间扭曲较为复杂的没有褶皱或破损面的管道,并用于成功的布尔求差甚至后面的倒角。如图片中的例子做一个半径为30单位,高度为50单位的圆柱在上下两个四等分点之间投影一条G2连续,膨胀率为1的桥接曲线,使用如图的所有方法,形成的管道都有不同程度的褶皱、破损或无法完成布尔的情况。

个人认为,这跟倒角面破损,失败率高,形成的断的,细小的边、面的段数、概率高是同一个问题,自由平滑的空间扭曲不行。对于较复杂的倒角的表现是破损或失败、对于造型、布尔、分割等操作会让破损、断裂增多,从而直接影响并限制混接面、Nsided、等工具的实际效果。

对于倒角不成功,常用的方法是将边缘形成相应半径的管道,布尔求差并修补。断边,破损面以Merge &Join,配合快速选择代码,进行修补倒也可以。

所以,请尽量优化、改善管道的问题吧。谢谢。


(Hello everyone
Simply put, no matter what method is used in Moi, it is impossible to create a pipeline with complex spatial distortion without wrinkles or damaged surfaces, and use it for successful Boolean subtraction or even subsequent fillet. As shown in the example in the picture, make a cylinder with a radius of 30 units and a height of 50 units, and project a G2 continuous bridge curve with an expansion rate of 1 between the upper and lower quartiles. Using all the methods shown in the picture, the formed pipeline will have varying degrees of wrinkles, damage, or inability to complete Boolean operations.
In my personal opinion, this is the same problem as the damaged chamfer surface, high failure rate, and the formation of broken, small edges and surfaces with high probability of segments. Free and smooth spatial distortion is not feasible. The manifestation of more complex chamfers is damage or failure, and for operations such as modeling, Boolean, and segmentation, it can increase damage and fracture, directly affecting and limiting the actual effect of tools such as mixing surfaces and Nsided.
The common method for unsuccessful fillet is to form pipes with corresponding radii at the edges, perform Boolean subtraction, and repair them. Broken edges and damaged surfaces can be repaired using Merge&Join, combined with quick code selection.
So, please try to optimize and improve the pipeline issues as much as possible. thanks)

EDITED: 18 May by SUIYAN


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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.2 In reply to 11409.1 
Hi SUIYAN, it is likely that there is some problem with the projection step, probably the projected curve is not well formed.

Did you use the "Closest point" option in the project command? That particular option can make a sort of wiggly curve result if the curve is not within a small distance of the surface.

You will probably need to use a different method than current way you have done the projection.

It would be easier to help you if you can please post a .3dm model file with the actual objects you show with your question instead of only screenshots.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.3 In reply to 11409.1 
Hi SUIYAN, is this the result you were looking for?

Here I formed the sweep tube's rail by generating a ribbon-like surface and using Construct > Curve > Isect to intersect it with the cylinder.



- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.4 In reply to 11409.1 
Hi SUIYAN, also another way that can be good to make twisted things is by initially making just a straight extrusion and then using Transform > Deform > Twist to get the twisted result:













- Michael

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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.5 In reply to 11409.3 
你好Michael ,我重复了您的操作,感谢,学习到了新的技巧。我的操作的确是您说的一样。事实上使用者们希望依靠投影就能够成功,而不使用其他的技巧。因为投影(或最近距离投影)和相交的曲线在视觉上几乎一样,准确的说无论看起来有没有差别,都是完全平滑的,所以希望能够直接成功。

附上模型附件(ps:不习惯上传模型附件的原因可能是论坛允许附件大小太小了,我更习惯上传图片吧)

(Hello Michael, I have repeated your operation. Thank you for learning new skills. My actions are indeed the same as what you said. In fact, users hope to succeed through projection without using other techniques. Because projection (or closest distance projection) and intersecting curves are almost identical visually, to be precise, they are completely smooth regardless of whether they appear different or not, so we hope to achieve direct success.
Attached model attachments (PS: The reason why I am not used to uploading model attachments may be that the forum allows attachment sizes to be too small, I am more accustomed to uploading picture)

ps,我知道Transform > Deform > Twist 的方法(PS, I know the method of Transform>Deform>Twist)


而我需要实现的效果如图片:Expected final effect.3dm - MoI.jpg所展示的,模型文件Expected final effect.3dm。边缘有个较大的fillet而这只能通过Transform—Deform—Twist的方式近似实现或network修补,Construct > Curve > Isect to intersec也难以进行较大fillet因为断裂的边缘经常被漏掉选择一类 的原因而我和部分使用者希望通过project>sweep(pipe)>boolean(diff)>fillet这样直接的方式完美的实现这类模型的实体建模,以减少,破碎面,断裂边的问题。
(And the effect I need to achieve is shown in the image: Expected final effect.3dm - MoI.jpg, the model file Expected final effect.3dm. There is a larger fill at the edge, which can only be approximated or network patched through Transform Transform Twist, Construct> Curve> It is also difficult to perform a large fill in the Isect to Intersect section because the broken edges are often missed. Therefore, some users and I hope to use Project> Sweep (pipe)> Boolean (diff)> Fillet's direct approach perfectly implements the solid modeling of such models to reduce the problems of broken surfaces and edges.)

当我将由blend生成的曲线连续度提高为G3,采用Curve>isect方式得到的管道对圆柱布尔进行(diff)就会出现细小的,破碎的面(Expected final effect G3.3dm)虽然选择边缘连续能够进行fillet,但希望直接使用project→sweep(pipe)达到Twist的没有破损面的效果。以避免因为细微选择差别,带来的运算结果完全不同的问题,以及后续的问题。

(When I increase the continuity of the curve generated by blend to G3 and use the Curve>isect method to obtain a pipeline for cylinder Boolean (diff), small and broken surfaces (Expected final effect G3.3dm) will appear. Although selecting edge continuity can fill, I hope to directly use Project → sweep (pipe) to achieve Twist's effect of no damaged surfaces. To avoid the problem of completely different calculation results caused by subtle selection differences, as well as subsequent problems.)

表达可能并不准确,问题的根本是:如果只有project生成的曲线是准确的,那么moi能否生成一条完整可用的管道?而不是使用任何近似的方式。毕竟这仅仅是一种例子。
(The expression may not be accurate, and the root of the problem is: if only the curve generated by the project is accurate, can moi generate a complete and usable pipeline? Instead of using any approximate method. After all, this is just an example.)

由此衍生的问题包括同类曲线边缘的倒角:个人认为都属于同类的问题(The resulting problems include chamfering at the edges of curves of the same type: I personally believe that they all belong to the same type of problem)

EDITED: 19 May by SUIYAN


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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.6 
嗨,大家好,我的尝试对这个问题有了新的进展,可以通过sweep达到和pipe.js脚本相同的效果,虽然还是不能布尔。
附件是模型文件
附件似乎无法上传视频。

Hi everyone, I have made new progress on this issue through my attempts. I can achieve the same effect as the pipe.js script through sweep, although it still cannot be boolean.
The attachment is the model file
The attachment seems to be unable to upload the video.




我将操作过程的视频放在了视频网站上(I have posted a video of the operation process on the video website):https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Zq4y197ii?p=15&vd_source=913e265b028433d7f4030496da189d83

EDITED: 21 May by SUIYAN


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 From:  val2
11409.7 
Your pipe curve is too dense. you need to reconstruct the curve (25 points should work) I would extend the curve a bit farther than the cylinder for cutting purposes.
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 From:  Phiro
11409.8 
Hi,

Another thing you have to avoid with MoI is the coplannar boolean actions.
When you objects in boolean opérationq are coplannar MoI could have some problems
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 From:  BurrMan
11409.9 In reply to 11409.6 
Error in the surface of the sweep. my bet is that curve creation method is what you want to look at. Here I created it in a different way. Generate a good sweep and boolean success.



Maybe you want to discuss more "How" you created the sweep? If you focus on that part you can probably jump the hurdle.

(In the beginning of the video I zoom to the surface and show the degradation.... Just watched the video and realized it doesn't actually "show through" in the video. If you open the file and zoom to the surface, you should see it more clearly.)
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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.10 In reply to 11409.9 
HI BurrMan THINKS
使用相交曲线只是近似的结果,与迈克的方法相同。但我想我解决了那就是使用rebuild—refit创建一条重合的但控制点少得多的曲线(使曲线不震荡)。我将用图片演示操作的过程,也会将过程的视频发布在中国的视频网站上。https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1Zq4y197ii?p=16&vd_source=913e265b028433d7f4030496da189d83(图片顺序1—9)

我想现在这个问题近似于解决了。我想用最简单直接的逻辑准确的完成建模,而尽可能少的使用近似的方法和技巧(尽管这些我都会),所以发出这个讨论,希望解决moi曲线震荡的问题。

因为后续的建模过程都会受到影响(例如图片9.png)
(HI BurrMan THINKS, The use of intersecting curves is only an approximate result, similar to Mike's method. But I think I solved it by using rebuild refit to create a curve that overlaps but has much fewer control points (making the curve less oscillatory). I will demonstrate the operation process with pictures and also post a video of the process on Chinese video websites. (Image order 1-8)
I think this problem is almost solved now. I want to use the simplest and most direct logic to accurately complete the modeling, while minimizing the use of approximate methods and techniques (although I know all of them), so I am sending out this discussion in the hope of solving the problem of Moi curve oscillation.)
(Because the subsequent modeling process will be affected (such as image 9. png)























EDITED: 21 May by SUIYAN


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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.12 In reply to 11409.8 
HI Phiro

Thanks For You
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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.13 In reply to 11409.7 
HI val2

是的重建曲线后结果非常成功,但是我不知道直接投影无法成功对moi3d来说算不算是个BUG?(Yes, after rebuilding the curve, the pipeline was very successful, but I don't know if direct project cannot be considered a bug for Moi3D?)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.14 In reply to 11409.6 
Hi SUIYAN,

re:
> The attachment seems to be unable to upload the video

This will happen if your attachment is very large, more than 10 MB I think.

To send a file that large you will need to use a file sharing service instead of making a forum attachment.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.15 In reply to 11409.13 
Hi SUIYAN,

re:
> (Yes, after rebuilding the curve, the pipeline was very successful, but I don't
> know if direct project cannot be considered a bug for Moi3D?)

Yes, that's correct, the "closest point" option in the Project command is buggy and should be avoided for now.

- Michael
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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.16 In reply to 11409.15 
HI Michael

好吧,我使用direction模式,然后separate后进行sweep or pipe.js就非常顺利。(附件图片)希望能够解决closest point's bug。

(To send a file that large you will need to use a file sharing service instead of making a forum attachment.)
能够使用截取图片演示吗?我刚刚接触使用 moi3d forum。你知道这些在中国的forum非常的简单。(在使用closest point生成的曲线,点击pick scaling rall能够增加管道生成的概率,尽管还是不能用于布尔等操作。)

Okay, I'll use the direction mode, then separate and proceed with sweep or pipe.js very smoothly. (Attached image) Hope to solve the closed point's bug.
(To send a file that large you will need to use a file sharing service instead of making a forum attachment.)

Can use screenshots to demonstrate? I just started using moi3d forum. You know these forums in China are very simple. (Clicking on pick scaling all can increase the probability of pipeline generation when using closed points to generate curves, although it still cannot be used for Boolean operations.)

Ps:direction与closest point生成的曲线仍然不同的(s4.png)因此应该使用rebuild curves结果更加准确。
The curves generated by direction and closed point are still different (s4. png), so rebuilding curves should be used to obtain more accurate results.

PS2:我发起这篇讨论的初衷是想解决moi3D所有同类或相似的问题,简单的说就是不同曲线的管道扫略(实际可能与fillet等功能都有关联),在我的使用过程中有将螺旋线投影到五角星体或多边形体,所扫略生成的管道都有概率有一些问题。但对我来说起码能够生成就可以,花时间总能够解决问题,但这次是因为不能生成。(我认为fillet的本质也是面在空间弯折后拟合结果,所以与管道是同一种类型的问题。)
(PS2: My original intention in initiating this discussion was to solve all similar or similar problems in Moi3D, in simple terms, pipeline scanning for different curves (which may actually be related to filling and other functions). During my use, I projected spiral lines onto pentagons or polygonal shapes, and the pipelines generated by the scanning may have some problems. But for me, at least being able to generate is enough. Spending time can always solve problems, but this time it's because I can't generate. (I think the essence of filling is also the fitting result of the surface after spatial bending, so it is the same type of problem as the pipeline.))

EDITED: 21 May by SUIYAN

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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.17 In reply to 11409.16 
Hi SUIYAN,

re:
> Can use screenshots to demonstrate?

You mean for using a file sharing service? You seem to have done that already using www.bilibili.com .

Thanks, - Michael
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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.18 In reply to 11409.17 
Okay, Michael
我都是这么做的,但你知道,这并不是所有国家的人都能看到这个网站的视频,正如我在默认的情况下看不了YouTube上的视频,所以我希望论坛能够支持大容量附件的上传,以方便所有人都能够通过视频文件学习经验和方法。

(I do it this way, but you know, not everyone in all countries can see videos on this website, just like I cannot watch videos on YouTube by default, so I hope the forum can support uploading large attachments, so that everyone can learn experiences and methods through video files.)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
11409.19 In reply to 11409.18 
Hi SUIYAN,

re:
> so I hope the forum can support uploading large attachments

Doing that would mean spending more money on web server storage and more time maintaining and managing the web server.

So I'm sorry but it's not something that I expect to handle myself.

File sharing services already exist to handle this. It's not very efficient for me to try and replicate their job.

- Michael
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 From:  大道刀 (SUIYAN)
11409.20 In reply to 11409.19 
HI Michael

我很抱歉忽略了这一点(I'm sorry for overlooking this point)
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