Hi Michael

I understand that my suggestion to reverse the order is a bit odd which is why I suggest making it an option.

Based on my use of MOI most of the time I am going to be manipulating an object, not a group.

So that means a lot of extra clicks, especial if I have 3 or 4 levels of nesting.

Would it be hard to allow both drill-down and "drill-up"?

My goal is not to make your work harder.

Forget the key idea, too many to remember already.

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Based on my use of MOI most of the time I am going to be manipulating an object, not a group.

I guess I'd ask why put it in a group then if you don't want it to behave like a group?

Maybe you need some other organization method separate from groups like "folders" where you can select an entire folder using the scene browser but when you click on objects in the viewport they will select as individual items.


> Would it be hard to allow both drill-down and "drill-up"?

I'm not sure. It would probably have some difficulty co-existing with other selection mechanisms like edge/face drill in on solids.

If your initial click on a solid in a group selected the solid, then if your next click on it would do "drill up" to target the parent group that would mean you could not drill in to select edges or faces of the solid.


- Michael

Hi Michael.

I see the problem - "drill up" simply won't work.

How about a way to enable/disable just drilling down into a group?

When disabled it would behave like it does now, it selects the object clicked on?

Controlled perhaps by two different user selectable keys (including the usual alt/ctrl/shift bits)? Or one that toggles? How about "scroll lock"? I've always wanted to use that key. <grin>

Mostly I design machines that consist of assemblies, of assemblies, of assemblies, etc. Without actually converting a past project for V5 and working with it, I envision a lot of clicking that becomes annoying. Maybe that would not be the case.

And the idea of "Groups" sounded so simple in my mind.

Frederick

OK another group question but not about the drill down.

How do you add a new object to an existing group?

How do you remove an existing object from a group or move it to another group?

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> How do you add a new object to an existing group?

Select the object and then click on the group name in the "Objects" section of the scene browser.


> How do you remove an existing object from a group

Select the existing object and use either Ungroup to move it out of its current group and up one level in the hierarchy, or use UngroupAll to completely remove it from the entire hierarchy in one shot.


> or move it to another group?

Select the object and then click on the group name in the "Objects" section of the scene browser.

- Michael

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Controlled perhaps by two different user selectable keys (including the usual alt/ctrl/shift bits)?

There are not 2 keys available out of alt/ctrl/shift - ctrl + click is used for deselection, shift + click is used for multiple selection if "Multiple selection: Only with Shift key" is set.

Alt is a possibility but Alt+drag is used for view navigation and trying to use it also for selection will degrade the view navigation a little because it will have to wait to see if you're doing a drag or a click before it can do anything.

Maybe I can make double click drill all the way down to the bottom. I don't like double click all that much though I have tried to avoid using it but that means it is open currently.

Maybe another thing that could happen with the double click method is that after you've done it on one item in a group the group could go into a type of "full drill down mode" and any further single clicks on anything within the same hierarchy would select objects directly and not any intermediate groups. When selection is cleared off of everything in the group "full drill down mode" could turn off.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

When I posted "keys" I was thinking of the normal keys (a to z, etc) plus the possible alt/ctrl/shift modifiers - just like you already use for "short cut keys".

I tend to agree about double-clicking. It adds a "timing element" which is not real user friendly.

Frederick

Hi Michael,

Well, that works just fine.

Here I was looking around for ADD and MOVE commands.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> When I posted "keys" I was thinking of the normal keys (a to z, etc) plus the possible
> alt/ctrl/shift modifiers - just like you already use for "short cut keys".

That would unfortunately be completely undiscoverable because it is very uncommon for a program to use a "normal key" being held down to modify mouse clicking behavior.


> I tend to agree about double-clicking. It adds a "timing element" which is not real user friendly.

It is a good fit for this particular thing though because 2 individual clicks will already drill in.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

I wasn't thinking of holding a key down, just using a key in the same way that "short cut" keys are used, to invoke an action.

Only this one key would toggle between if "group drill down" was in effect or if "just select the object clicked on" was in effect.

If toggle keys are "bad" then use two to select would "mode" is in effect.

Sorry for being unclear in what I was trying to convey.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Only this one key would toggle between if "group drill down" was in effect or if "just
> select the object clicked on" was in effect.

That still has the problem of being virtually undiscoverable. There is no way that someone just experimenting with clicking and holding down modifiers would know to press the key to toggle the mode.

Maybe Ctrl+click could work for this after all. Currently Ctrl+click on a selected object will prevent it from drilling in and instead deselect the clicked object.

But Ctrl+click specifically on an unselected object doesn't do anything different than not having Ctrl down.

i'll give it a try and see if that could work ok.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

In the Options there are settings which affect behavior, such as snapping. They are "discoverable" in the sense you can click Options and look around.

I would be perfectly happy being able to enable/disable the group drill down behavior there. That would seem to be consistent with the spirit of things.

I'm pretty sure that being able to select a group via the list of objects would work out fine for me.

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick, it's kind of weird option you are asking for - basically to make groups not select as a group.

Selecting together as one unit is the primary purpose for having groups.

If you don't want it to behave like a group then why do you want to make it a group in the first place? Maybe some other organization method would be better suited for what you are trying to do rather than a "group that does not behave like a group".

Are there any other programs you use that have an option like this for what they call "groups" ?

- Michael

Hi Michael.

Think of the files on a computer. Lots of different folder, full of different files. Folks usually use folders to organize and keep related files together.

But selecting the folder doesn't select all the files in the folder.

When editing a file you generally are going to work on one file at a time.

But there are times when you are going to do something with all the files, such as doing a backup, or zipping them up.

That's how I see groups working in MOI.

Most of the time I will be creating/editing individual objects.

But when it comes, say, to exporting them, being able to export the group makes things easier.

Another use of a group is when I am going to create a new version of an assembly. Each part (object) in the new assembly (group) is going to have the name as in the existing assembly (group). But the new assembly (group) will have a different name - something with a version number in it.

If I can copy-and-paste the existing group as a new group I get all the existing objects already in the new group, ready to be edited as needed to create the new version of the assembly.

I envision a system where the MOI file represents a project which has a name.

Each MOI group represents a set of parts (MOI objects) that make up an assembly. Each assembly (group) has a name, each part (object) has a name.

I then can select the topmost group (the collection of all assemblies) and do an export. Each file ends up named something like "projectname-assemblyname-partname".

Right now I have to do all that one file at a time and the file names need to be edited to reflect what project and assembly they are for.

Hope the helps to understand how I see things and how I work.

Frederick

Hi Frederick, thanks for explaining. I want to have an additional organization method called "folders" that I think will more closely map to what you want to do than groups.

- Michael

Could we use ctrl+alt+click for group drilldown? It's a little bit more complicated, but if it's a less-common action, a combo like that seems fine. Assuming we're already set up for using multiple modifiers on a click, this should be easy, and then folks can customize the keybindings if they care.

Hi Cuboctahedron,

re:
> Could we use ctrl+alt+click for group drilldown?

For the next v5 beta, ctrl+click on an unselected item in a group will do a full drill-in to target just that object and not any intermediate groups.

- Michael

Hi Michael,
Just a note to let you know that two colors in my MoI4 went grey again, all by themselves.
Background color went to 77,77,77, which is the same as my MoI5beta background color.

Locked Alt color went to 171, 171, 171, (I think from MoI5beta(?), as far as I can tell).

I did not do much in MoI4. Did make an Object Library (Max's customUI) trombone bell.

- Brian

Hi Brian, re: color changes - what do you have set in MoI v5 here under Options > View > Colors, are they set to "From theme" or "Custom"? :


If you have it set to "Custom", then that's basically like "v4 compatibility mode" where those colors will come from a global setting just like they did in v4 and they will use the same setting in moi.ini as v4 to store the custom colors.

So if you set the color mode to "Custom" in v5 that is normal that any change to the color value will show up in v4 as well.

It is possible to make v5 have separate settings from v5 instead of using the same setting. The main way to do that is to set the color to "From theme" instead of "Custom" and then edit the color in a customized theme instead of as a v4-like global value. Any colors set in the theme will not be seen by v4.

Or if you are disturbed by having settings shared between v4 and v5 it is possible to set it up so that each one will use a separate moi.ini file. You can do that by modifying the shortcut you use to launch MoI.exe and giving it a command line parameter with a path to a moi.ini file to use. If there are any spaces in the path put double quotes " " around the path.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

The setting that is being used is "From Theme".

I'll delete the April 10 beta, and leave the May 22 beta, in case that is the cause.

Not sure what permutation causes the color change.
(reboot, power failure, MoI4 open/closed, MoI5beta open/closed, Windows 11?.

I'll call it just a very minor characteristic...:-)

- Brian