Hi Brian, it seems to be some side effect from the new theme support in v5, I'll see if I can figure out what settings in moi.ini are getting re-used that maybe should be separate settings in v5 or something.

- Michael

Thank you Michael.
In MoI4, I manually reset the View Background color to R210, G 223, B 225,
and Locked Objects color to 171, 171, 171,
which are the values used in MoI5 beta default color. Presumably the same as the old MoI 4 colors.
All is well.
I think that the MoI4 gridline colors were not altered. (?)

- Brian

Thanks Michael.

The new UI and Group capabilities are going to be a big help when teaching!

It just keeps getting better and better! :)

Tom Meeks

Hi Michael,

Currently :
- Clicking on a object in a group once selects the group
- Clicking again on the same object selects just that object

Correct?

I have a couple of ideas.

1. Allow selecting that behavior (group then object) or the reverse (object then group)

2. Allow holding down some key to control that behavior. Key up you get it one way, key down the other. Just to eliminate the need for a second click

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Currently :
> - Clicking on a object in a group once selects the group
> - Clicking again on the same object selects just that object
>
> Correct?

Yes, it's similar to the "drill in" behavior that's been in place for selecting edge or face sub-objects of solids since MoI version 1.


> I have a couple of ideas.
>
> 1. Allow selecting that behavior (group then object) or the reverse (object then group)
>

I don't think I've seen any programs that function in the reverse order. Do you know of any examples?

It's kind of the most essential function of groups that it makes a set of objects stay together and that means starting with the topmost whole group being selected on the first click.


> 2. Allow holding down some key to control that behavior. Key up you get it one way, key down
> the other. Just to eliminate the need for a second click

What key would you propose for doing that? I'm not sure that there are any that are not already serving some other purpose.

- Michael

Hi Michael

I understand that my suggestion to reverse the order is a bit odd which is why I suggest making it an option.

Based on my use of MOI most of the time I am going to be manipulating an object, not a group.

So that means a lot of extra clicks, especial if I have 3 or 4 levels of nesting.

Would it be hard to allow both drill-down and "drill-up"?

My goal is not to make your work harder.

Forget the key idea, too many to remember already.

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Based on my use of MOI most of the time I am going to be manipulating an object, not a group.

I guess I'd ask why put it in a group then if you don't want it to behave like a group?

Maybe you need some other organization method separate from groups like "folders" where you can select an entire folder using the scene browser but when you click on objects in the viewport they will select as individual items.


> Would it be hard to allow both drill-down and "drill-up"?

I'm not sure. It would probably have some difficulty co-existing with other selection mechanisms like edge/face drill in on solids.

If your initial click on a solid in a group selected the solid, then if your next click on it would do "drill up" to target the parent group that would mean you could not drill in to select edges or faces of the solid.


- Michael

Hi Michael.

I see the problem - "drill up" simply won't work.

How about a way to enable/disable just drilling down into a group?

When disabled it would behave like it does now, it selects the object clicked on?

Controlled perhaps by two different user selectable keys (including the usual alt/ctrl/shift bits)? Or one that toggles? How about "scroll lock"? I've always wanted to use that key. <grin>

Mostly I design machines that consist of assemblies, of assemblies, of assemblies, etc. Without actually converting a past project for V5 and working with it, I envision a lot of clicking that becomes annoying. Maybe that would not be the case.

And the idea of "Groups" sounded so simple in my mind.

Frederick

OK another group question but not about the drill down.

How do you add a new object to an existing group?

How do you remove an existing object from a group or move it to another group?

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> How do you add a new object to an existing group?

Select the object and then click on the group name in the "Objects" section of the scene browser.


> How do you remove an existing object from a group

Select the existing object and use either Ungroup to move it out of its current group and up one level in the hierarchy, or use UngroupAll to completely remove it from the entire hierarchy in one shot.


> or move it to another group?

Select the object and then click on the group name in the "Objects" section of the scene browser.

- Michael

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Controlled perhaps by two different user selectable keys (including the usual alt/ctrl/shift bits)?

There are not 2 keys available out of alt/ctrl/shift - ctrl + click is used for deselection, shift + click is used for multiple selection if "Multiple selection: Only with Shift key" is set.

Alt is a possibility but Alt+drag is used for view navigation and trying to use it also for selection will degrade the view navigation a little because it will have to wait to see if you're doing a drag or a click before it can do anything.

Maybe I can make double click drill all the way down to the bottom. I don't like double click all that much though I have tried to avoid using it but that means it is open currently.

Maybe another thing that could happen with the double click method is that after you've done it on one item in a group the group could go into a type of "full drill down mode" and any further single clicks on anything within the same hierarchy would select objects directly and not any intermediate groups. When selection is cleared off of everything in the group "full drill down mode" could turn off.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

When I posted "keys" I was thinking of the normal keys (a to z, etc) plus the possible alt/ctrl/shift modifiers - just like you already use for "short cut keys".

I tend to agree about double-clicking. It adds a "timing element" which is not real user friendly.

Frederick

Hi Michael,

Well, that works just fine.

Here I was looking around for ADD and MOVE commands.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> When I posted "keys" I was thinking of the normal keys (a to z, etc) plus the possible
> alt/ctrl/shift modifiers - just like you already use for "short cut keys".

That would unfortunately be completely undiscoverable because it is very uncommon for a program to use a "normal key" being held down to modify mouse clicking behavior.


> I tend to agree about double-clicking. It adds a "timing element" which is not real user friendly.

It is a good fit for this particular thing though because 2 individual clicks will already drill in.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

I wasn't thinking of holding a key down, just using a key in the same way that "short cut" keys are used, to invoke an action.

Only this one key would toggle between if "group drill down" was in effect or if "just select the object clicked on" was in effect.

If toggle keys are "bad" then use two to select would "mode" is in effect.

Sorry for being unclear in what I was trying to convey.

Frederick

Hi Frederick,

re:
> Only this one key would toggle between if "group drill down" was in effect or if "just
> select the object clicked on" was in effect.

That still has the problem of being virtually undiscoverable. There is no way that someone just experimenting with clicking and holding down modifiers would know to press the key to toggle the mode.

Maybe Ctrl+click could work for this after all. Currently Ctrl+click on a selected object will prevent it from drilling in and instead deselect the clicked object.

But Ctrl+click specifically on an unselected object doesn't do anything different than not having Ctrl down.

i'll give it a try and see if that could work ok.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

In the Options there are settings which affect behavior, such as snapping. They are "discoverable" in the sense you can click Options and look around.

I would be perfectly happy being able to enable/disable the group drill down behavior there. That would seem to be consistent with the spirit of things.

I'm pretty sure that being able to select a group via the list of objects would work out fine for me.

Thanks.

Frederick

Hi Frederick, it's kind of weird option you are asking for - basically to make groups not select as a group.

Selecting together as one unit is the primary purpose for having groups.

If you don't want it to behave like a group then why do you want to make it a group in the first place? Maybe some other organization method would be better suited for what you are trying to do rather than a "group that does not behave like a group".

Are there any other programs you use that have an option like this for what they call "groups" ?

- Michael

Hi Michael.

Think of the files on a computer. Lots of different folder, full of different files. Folks usually use folders to organize and keep related files together.

But selecting the folder doesn't select all the files in the folder.

When editing a file you generally are going to work on one file at a time.

But there are times when you are going to do something with all the files, such as doing a backup, or zipping them up.

That's how I see groups working in MOI.

Most of the time I will be creating/editing individual objects.

But when it comes, say, to exporting them, being able to export the group makes things easier.

Another use of a group is when I am going to create a new version of an assembly. Each part (object) in the new assembly (group) is going to have the name as in the existing assembly (group). But the new assembly (group) will have a different name - something with a version number in it.

If I can copy-and-paste the existing group as a new group I get all the existing objects already in the new group, ready to be edited as needed to create the new version of the assembly.

I envision a system where the MOI file represents a project which has a name.

Each MOI group represents a set of parts (MOI objects) that make up an assembly. Each assembly (group) has a name, each part (object) has a name.

I then can select the topmost group (the collection of all assemblies) and do an export. Each file ends up named something like "projectname-assemblyname-partname".

Right now I have to do all that one file at a time and the file names need to be edited to reflect what project and assembly they are for.

Hope the helps to understand how I see things and how I work.

Frederick

Hi Frederick, thanks for explaining. I want to have an additional organization method called "folders" that I think will more closely map to what you want to do than groups.

- Michael