V5 beta Apr-10-2022 available now
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 From:  r0ss0
10652.49 
Hi Michael.

If I buy the v4 now(as 2022-4-27), do I pay for the v5 upgrade or it will be a free upgrade?
Sorry if this has been asked.
Thanks!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.50 In reply to 10652.49 
Hi r0ss0,

> If I buy the v4 now(as 2022-4-27), do I pay for the v5 upgrade or it will be a free upgrade?

It would be a paid upgrade. There will be a "grace period" where if you purchase v4 within a couple of months of the v5 release you will get a free upgrade to v5. But the v5 beta period has only just recently started, the full release is quite a ways off yet definitely more than a couple of months.

So a v4 purchase right now would not be in the grace period time for getting a free v5 upgrade.

- Michael
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 From:  Larry Fahnoe (FAHNOE)
10652.51 In reply to 10652.1 
Hi Michael,

> Update Mac trackpad/Magic Mouse handling.

Two thumbs up on these changes! I use MOI on a MacBook Pro (without a mouse) & the V4 trackpad handling was inconsistent as you know. I haven't spent a lot of time with the beta but am noting with pleasure that I can use 2-finger drags to get panning reliably...used to be that sometimes it would get stuck and zoom instead. Now I have to "teach" myself to use it as intended! ;-}

--Larry
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 From:  RD (REDDIAMOND)
10652.52 
Hi Michael,

I'm currently testing Plasticity and some of the features are very interesting. More specifically the ability to do live Chamfering and Filleting and even more importantly the ability to rotate faces (there are still issues with rotating faces, but it looks promising).

Are these features something that you are considering at the moment for the next version of MoI? These features are extremely powerful and save an enormous amount of time when modeling.

Thank you.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.53 In reply to 10652.52 
Hi RD,

re:
> Are these features something that you are considering at the moment for the next version of MoI?

A few months ago I was planning on that but unfortunately the circumstances have changed and that's no longer the case.

Plasticity is doing them by using a geometry library called C3D. I had also wanted to use C3D to do the same things inside of MoI but it's become unfeasible to do that because C3D is the product of a Russian company and the Russia/Ukraine war has made it untenable to license it for use in MoI.

I might attempt to do my own implementation of direct face editing (the rotate face part) at some point here but I don't know when. There is a lot of work involved and so it's not very likely for the next version.

What is the situation with face rotation that is causing trouble in Plasticity, do you have an example of that?

- Michael
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 From:  RD (REDDIAMOND)
10652.54 In reply to 10652.53 
Have you considered using Parasolid instead of C3D? It looks like it's fairly expensive and based on what the creator of Plasticity has said (he's also exploring Parasolid because of the same reasons that you have just mentioned), it could increase the price of Plasticity significantly. But apparently this third party library has even some support to move and scale edges, which is very interesting.

About the example of issues with face rotation, I found some issues when filleting after doing the rotation operation, but I did not save the file unfortunately. I will let you know if I can re-create it and will post an example.

Thank you.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.55 In reply to 10652.54 
Hi RD, yes I've looked into using Parasolid before but it's not a great fit for MoI.

First because it's quite expensive and licensing it puts various restrictions on how you can price and deliver the product using it. In general it's very corporate/"Big Enterprise" oriented.

But also I found it to be kind of finicky in the type of geometry it accepts, especially with closed surfaces. It represents trimming boundaries on closed surfaces in a somewhat different way than MoI's current geometry library does and that makes for some problems in transferring model data between them.

It's a lot of work to switch everything in MoI over to a different library, the main way that I would want to use a new library would be to use it initially in just a couple of key spots like filleting, shelling, and face transforms and translate model data back and forth between the kernels. When the trim boundary mechanisms don't match up too well that becomes difficult to do with 100% reliability.

One of the things that was particularly good with C3D is that it represented trim boundaries similar to how MoI currently does where a trim boundary 3D edge curve maps directly to a surface uv parameter space curve and does not cross over the seam of a closed surface like Parasolid's method.

Maybe at some point I will re-evaluate it but not anytime soon. Certainly not for the next version. It's more likely that I would do some experimental work on face transforms myself first before doing that.

I'm fairly lucky that I didn't end up investing a whole lot of time with C3D, I had just started an in depth evaluation of it a couple of weeks before the war started.

- Michael
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 From:  RD (REDDIAMOND)
10652.56 In reply to 10652.55 
"First because it's quite expensive and licensing it puts various restrictions on how you can price and deliver the product using it. In general it's very corporate/"Big Enterprise" oriented."

That's the impression that I get from this as well.

"Maybe at some point I will re-evaluate it but not anytime soon. Certainly not for the next version. It's more likely that I would do some experimental work on face transforms myself first before doing that."

I hope that you succeed doing so, that would be a very valuable addition to MoI3d imo.

Here's an example of what I have mentioned previously when testing Plasticity and the face rotation function.

With a simple test cube, I've rotated one of the face, and then performed a Chamfer operation (not fillet actually, I could not reproduce it using fillet, but I'm certain that I have seen some strange results with the fillet operation as well). You can see the unexpected result in the fourth image. The last image is the same Chamfer operation performed on one of the cube faces, without any rotation. Hope this helps.

Thank you.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.57 In reply to 10652.56 
Hi RD, re: unexpected chamfer result on rotated face, it looks like that is the correct result for how chamfers and
fillets work in CAD.

Chamfers or fillets between surfaces at different angles will have different widths. It's because fillets and chamfers
in CAD are defined by surface offsets. It's not quite the same thing as in a poly modeling program.

They all match up on your unrotated one because all the surfaces are at the same angle to each other there.

I guess that chamfer in CAD inherits this mechanism from fillets. It's normal for fillets to be wider or narrower
depending on the changing angle between 2 curved surfaces:



There is no guarantee that fillets between different surfaces will have the same width where they run into each other,
unless the edges being filleted are smooth to each other.

Chamfers get constructed in the same way as fillets with the same varying width they just get a straight line put in as
the cross section for the fillet surface rather than an arc being the cross section.

- Michael

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 From:  bemfarmer
10652.58 
For some reason, in nodeeditor, in math node, sin[...] not longer functions properly, but sin(...) does function correctly,
in BOTH MoI V4, and MoI V5beta.

Possible culprits?:
a. Windows 11 upgrade did something.
b. MoI V5beta did something? But to both V5beta and V4.
c. ?

Nodeeditor was not changed by myself...except I did replace arraysExt.js from here:
https://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=10671.2

The attached nod program has both [...] and (...) versions of SineWave built with nodes.

Perhaps someone who has not upgraded to Windows 11, or MoI V5beta could try the node program, in MoI V4?

- Brian

EDITED: 29 Apr 2022 by BEMFARMER


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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
10652.59 
Bless you Michael!!!! :)

The Group feature was one of my most desired wishes... I almost lost it when I tried it out!

I quickly assigned Ctrl+G and Gtrl+U that I habitually use with CorelDRAW and this will be so very useful to help me organize my objects and speed up my workflow. Before, selecting and moving objects had the feeling of taking one's groceries home without tote bags to carry them in. I like how you can still drill-select to get into the groups.

There is a little quirk when you try to Ungroup sub-groups, or groups that have been grouped together, everything becomes separate. The Ungroup and UngroupAll commands do the same thing as far as I can tell. (?) A Cut and Paste of each sub-group should keep them from becoming soup if I need to separate them again.

I have a client that insists on 3D type for his tee designs (why did I open that can of worms?) and another that always has me tinkering with his patent ideas with way too many needless iterations, and you can imagine me talking up Moi like a missionary while working with them, that is, until they ask for me to move whole type and object clusters. But now... ;)

Still though Michael, I'm very happy about this and I'm grateful!


I also do appreciate the Dark Theme option. I get eye fatigue easy and this will be nice.
I also find it fitting to Moi's unique character to allow its users a little "house decorating," a definite draw to the more artistically minded.
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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
10652.60 
Also, I'm unable to change the Style color or change the visibility on object outlines for objects that are grouped as a whole, not without drill-selecting into the group or Ungrouping the set. A feature?

[ah... you can change the Style if you select the yellow dot for each individual sub-object. When you change the style of the whole group object, the Style swatch up top says that it has the new color, but the objects themselves remain unchanged.]

EDITED: 29 Apr 2022 by MAJIKMIKE

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 From:  dinos
10652.61 
Hi Michael, congratulations for the first beta of V5!
Groups was my most wanted feature and I'm really glad that its available already.

I was playing with the new themes feature and i noticed that the Axis Labels are not respected when assigning colors to the Viewport y&z axis.
Is this how it supposed to be and i should just correct it in the theme editor or is it a bug?

Dinos
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.62 In reply to 10652.61 
Hi Dinos,

re:
> Is this how it supposed to be and i should just correct it in the theme editor or is it a bug?

I guess it's a bug but the behavior is the same in v4 for the X/Y/Z axis colors in Options > Grid.

I'll fix it up so that it will take relabeled axis settings into account.

It looks like the axis icon colors (for axis icon in lower left corner) is doing it ok.

Thanks,
- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.63 In reply to 10652.60 
Hi Mike,

For this part:
> Also, I'm unable to change the Style color or change the visibility on object outlines for objects that
> are grouped as a whole, not without drill-selecting into the group or Ungrouping the set. A feature?
>
> [ah... you can change the Style if you select the yellow dot for each individual sub-object.
> When you change the style of the whole group object, the Style swatch up top says that it has
> the new color, but the objects themselves remain unchanged.]

It's a bug - so if you select a group and then set the style by clicking on a color swatch in the Styles section
of the scene browser, it will set the style of all objects in the group.

If you set the style by using the Style menu in the upper right properties panel (the area with the Details...
button) that has different behavior and is currently only setting the style assigned to the group parent
object alone and not any sub objects which has no visible effect and then makes visibility behave a little
weird too.

I'll fix this up to make assigning with the style menu behave the same as how assigning by scene browser
swatch click works currently.

Thanks for reporting this, groups are a major structural change so there's quite a lot of things that need to
be tweaked to handle them better. Hopefully it should be in good shape with the next beta.

- Michael
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 From:  wayne hill (WAYNEHILL5202)
10652.64 In reply to 10652.58 
Hi Brian,

I restored my setup with the original arraysExt.js and have the same node error on both V4 and V5 beta.
Running Win10.

Wayne

EDITED: 29 Apr 2022 by WAYNEHILL5202

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 From:  RD (REDDIAMOND)
10652.65 In reply to 10652.57 
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

It seems like Plasticity is having an easier time handling Chamfering then. For example, this is the result in MoI Beta version 5 (also occurs with Version 4) of selecting 4 edges and then Chamfering them. Below, is the result inside Plasticity, doing the same steps.




Here's another example, selecting arbitrarily 2 adjacent edges. Top images are the result of this operation in Plasticity and below, MoI3d.

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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.66 In reply to 10652.65 
Hi RD, yes the Russian originating C3D library that Plasticity is using is definitely better at chamfering and filleting than MoI's.

That's of little impact since it isn't feasible to use it anymore. There really isn't any point of comparing with it.

It looks like you should be able to get those chamfers done in MoI ok if you do them one at a time:









In general it's easier to get chamfers and fillets done when all edges at a juncture point are being processed instead
of only some. That then allows for the fillet or chamfer surfaces to stop at a common corner juncture patch rather than
needing to intersect against each other, like this:





- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
10652.67 In reply to 10652.65 
@RD - it looks like the 2 and 4 edge chamfer cases worked ok in MoI v3 so there's a regression there starting in v4.

I'll see if I can track down what caused the regression and possibly revert it back.

- Michael
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 From:  bemfarmer
10652.68 In reply to 10652.64 
Hi Wayne

Thank you for your check.

I thought sin[theta] square brackets used to work, but am not certain.
I think that the square bracket enablement is in Max's nodeeditor code.
Javascript is involved.
I know Windows 11 upgrade modified my MoI 4 default background and alt colors, which seems very strange...
Eventually, in a few weeks, I'll try again on another computer without recent mods.
For now I'll stop worrying about it :-)

- Brian

I am unsure if sinewave should be a Macro/Node combination, or a brand new Sinewave.js?
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