Full Version: Interaction questions

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I have a couple of questions about moi3d interaction limits and algorithms.
To not spread amongst different threads i guess it's better to ask them in one thread here.

Q_01:
in moi3d there are alot of tools that have different modes.
for example Array tool have 4 modes: grid, dir, circular, curve.
It would be handy if user can just press "A" key once and then press acronym key for mode he wants:
"G" - for Grid mode, "D" - for Dir mode, etc.
So. Is it possible for moi3d interaction mechanism and if so, maybe we already have realisation or examples ?

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Hi Bravlin, it's not really feasible to do that currently. I do want to make it possible to do keyboard shortcuts with multiple keys but it will require some careful modification of keyboard handling and I don't expect to be able to make that for v4.

Currently things for shortcut keys are only set up for a single key with modifiers like Ctrl, Alt, etc... , not multiple keys.

- Michael

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What command does "Esc" key run ?
I am looking for scipt command that cancel current operator or tool session (or context not sure in terms).

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Hi Bravlin, the Esc key doesn't run any command directly, it runs a chunk of code in the keyboard handler that's part of the core C++ code in moi_lib.dll . It doesn't just cancel a command, it goes through a sequence of potential actions like if there is a flyout menu active or a dialog window has focus it will close that, otherwise if a selection filter is active it will clear that, otherwise if a command is running it will start the cancel process for that, otherwise if any waitable object like a point picker or object picker is active it will raise a cancel event on that, otherwise if any objects are selected it will deselect those, otherwise if there is any selection lock it will clear that, otherwise if any points on objects are on it will turn those off.

If you want to cancel a current running command by script there is an access point to trigger that using moi.command.cancel(); That will not immediately cancel the command it will set a flag to initiate the canceling process, the actual command will end later after it gets a little bit of time to handle it.

- Michael

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Thanks Michael. The moi.command.cancel(); helps.

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Q_02: Michael, is it possible to fetch current mouse coordinates (2d space) via script
or moi use windows native functions to work with mouse ?

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Hi Bravlin,

re:
> Michael, is it possible to fetch current mouse coordinates (2d space) via script
> or moi use windows native functions to work with mouse ?

Sorry no there is no functionality for that currently exposed to scripting.

- Michael

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Hi, i would also love to see a "ZBrush-like" shortcuts system but understand that it would take serious code changes. Would it be possible though to alternate through for example different array modes by repeatedly pressing the same shortcut?

Best,
Sven

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Hi Sven, that should be possible in the next v4 beta which has a new property for the current command name exposed to script. So that will enable some script on a shortcut key to have that kind of logic on it. The following script on a shortcut key will work for alternating through array commands in the next v4 beta:

script: /* cycle through array commands */ var next = 'arraygrid'; switch( moi.command.currentCommandName ) { case 'arraygrid' : next = 'arraydir'; break; case 'arraydir': next = 'arraycircular'; break; case 'arraycircular' : next = 'arraycurve'; break; } moi.command.execCommand( next );

One of the main original goals for MoI was to make it possible to use without needing to touch the keyboard at all, so very fancy keyboard shortcuts hasn't really been a big focus area.

- Michael

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Wow, that's great and really appreciated! I understand the original goal with MoI but to me a blank canvas without any UI is the dream config :) Speed is (too) important in concept work.

Great would be a reset after the shortcut sequence was used so that when you invoke it again you get the same result. Otherwise is won't make sense when the UI is hidden.

Best,
Sven

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Hi Sven,

re:
> Great would be a reset after the shortcut sequence was used so that when you invoke it again you get the
> same result. Otherwise is won't make sense when the UI is hidden.

Unfortunately that part seems like it would be difficult - the shortcut script above runs before the command actually starts. There isn't any way for it to know when the command that you actually wanted to use has finished up.

- Michael

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Ah, bummer! I was immediately thinking about a small popup on full screen mode showing the different available methods for a command with the current one highlighted but this is probably taking it too far ;) So no hiding the UI. Still this will be a great help as I'm slowly running out of left hand shortcut keys. And with this only the eyes will have to travel to the right, not the mouse :)

Best,
Sven

Edi: hmm, come to think of it that also doesn't work, right? The UI is not reflecting the current state of a command when invoked via shortkey

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Hi Sven,

> Ah, bummer! I was immediately thinking about a small popup on full screen mode showing the
> different available methods for a command with the current one highlighted but this is probably
> taking it too far ;)

Well that's certainly theoretically possible to do but it would be a lot of work to make a full fledged UI like that with a much different design than the current one. So it's not something that is easy to just roll out with a few lines of script code.

A UI with everything hidden and only popping things up when certain keys are pressed would be much more difficult for many people to learn.

- Michael

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Hi Michael,

I understand. Was just a thought for when MoI were in fullscreen mode, I wouldn't want to take away from MoI's user friendliness. And anyway MoI as it is now is the fastest 3D program I've ever used. So this is just me mumblin' and grumblin' on a very high level :)

Best,
Sven

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> One of the main original goals for MoI was to make it possible to use without needing to touch the keyboard at all.
Most of cad applications doesn't have ability to customize keyboard shortcuts like Moi does.
And that's one of a reason why effective modellers like Bulgarov works in Moi. I also prefer Moi amongst others because of that.
So for a sake of a fast and efficient work please do not turn moi to UI click based application.

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Hi Bravlin, don't worry I don't expect to be changing MoI's workflow very much in the future. But it is in fact primarily designed to be a UI click based application because that is what is easier for someone to learn, especially those without much experience.

Over time more and more additional options have been added for keyboard control and I certainly don't expect to take those away. If anything more options will continue to be added.

The way MoI's UI is designed is that it is implemented by script and so it quite flexible and nearly everything that is done in the UI can be done through a keyboard shortcut as well.

But I also do not expect to be radically changing the primary focus of MoI that it is focused on being easy to use and easy to learn either though. I am very intent on preserving this aspect of MoI.

- Michael

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Q_03: have hard time understanding orient tool and snaps interaction.
Here is a test project. I want cylinder been placed on sphere as it shown on picture above.
And i want it precisely along centerline of a sphere and oriented towards normal in that point.

I tried different snaps combinations and faced two problems:
01: If we turn off "Axis snap" we can place cylinder on surface but it would be placed not precisely along centerline.
We also can't use ortho views if we want cylinder to be oriented towards normal (i assume that it somehow related to raycast mechanisme etc.).
02: If we do not turn off "Axis snap" we place cylinder precisely along center line but it can't be placed on surface.
It would be placed on one of XYZ Axis. And it also can't be oriented along normal if we work in ortho view.



So how should i use snaps & oreint tool in that case ?
Maybe it can't be done in one step and it should take 2 or 3 steps.

Attachments:
Q_03.3dm

Image Attachments:
Q_03_01.jpg  Q_03_02.jpg 

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I will use one time again the magical function Line-Line (with no scale or other if needing) ;)

With 4 clicks + Helper Lines you can have any positions / Rotations! ;)
and not headaches of the Orient function, CPlane etc... ! :)

If you want insert your cylinder inside the sphere
...the more easy is draw a "Point" on the axe of the cylinder at distance from the base needing
So you can take this point as "markers" for your Line-Line function.
This can be made also by the Helper Lines themselve (Relocate) but..."Point" is more visual! :)

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The result position of cylinder is a bit different. I need it to be placed not along one of axis.
I need it to be placed along center line that divide sphere on 2 equal parts. And i also need it to be oriented to normal in that position.

But i see how line-line approach can be helpful. Thank you.
By the way line-line have the same snap issues.

Still i'm interested in orient tool & snaps approach.
I guess the main advantage of orient tool is automatic normal alignment.

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Hi Bravlin, it sounds like you're looking for an object snap that would automatically project the y axis onto the sphere. Unfortunately there isn't any built in snap that does that, the only snap that goes on the interior of a surface is either the "on surface" snap from a view direction rayfire, or the "cen" snap on a planar face bounded by line edges like the face of a box. The reason for that is because of performance - there is a lot more computation involved on projection and intersection calculations on surfaces instead of curves. It wouldn't really be a problem on your sphere case but it's also possible to have stuff like a surface with 5,000 x 5,000 control points in it and it would not be good to try and calculate a projection or intersection on a surface like that right in the middle of drawing.

Usually surfaces have a lot more edges to work with and you can target snaps on the edges to get what you need. The sphere happens to be the most sparse type of surface when it comes to edges since it has only a single edge on it.

But you could still make use of that edge if you rotate your sphere into a good position for your pick. You can use the Transform > Rotate command for that or a quick shortcut is to use the "wheel mode" of the edit frame. That's when you click and release on the rotation grip instead of dragging on it. That turns on the rotation wheels and in your case 2 drags would get it to the right position. That looks like this:




So other methods would be that when there is not a built in snap that will automatically give you what you need, you can build some helper curves or points which will have the needed snaps. There are numerous ways you could do this, like draw a line along the y axis and cut the sphere into 2 halves using boolean difference, or draw a y axis line and use Construct > Curve > Project to project it onto the sphere making a great circle on the sphere that you can then snap on to, or draw a line along the z axis that pierces the sphere at your desired spot and use Construct > Curve > Isect to intersect it with the sphere to get a point object to target.

A lot of times some strategic use of construction lines can also get you the needed snap point. In your case here it's possible by making a construction line from the center of the sphere to the end of its edge and reorienting the construction line endpoint to point in your desired direction. The thing that's nice about construction lines is that you can use them when you're in the middle of the orient command and they go away when you're done so you don't need to run any other commands or do any clean up steps. That looks like this:



Let me know if you need more detailed information about any of these methods.

- Michael

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