Full Version: 3D printing for beginners - From Moi/3D-Coat to a 3D printing service

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Hello to all moiers!

After the "OK" recevived by Michael I have created this new thread dedicated to who, like me, is and absolute beginner of "3D Printing" and have "zero" experience with it.

I wanted to create this new thread mainly for two reasons :

1) I play with CG for decades but I never printed anything in 3D.

2) Often I play with Moi/3D-Coat to create "3D scupltures" and I really would like to see that at least some of this "creations" could pop out of the screen :)


But...as I've said, I never played with 3D printing and I have zero experience with this aspect of CG.

Please consider that, at the moment, I don't have any intention to buy any 3D Printer on my own but I would leverage on one of the many 3D Printing service available now into the CG consumer market.

And furthermore consider that, for the moment, I don't need to 3D Print in colors, but my intention is (maybe) to "manually" paint the 3D printed models.
Maybe :)

For my "3D sculptures" I use Moi, R3F/NVIL and 3D-Coat (mainly for voxelization and sculpting)
Normally I deal with models composed by many millions of polygons, not low-poly versions, because I don't want to spend my time in the tedious work of Retopo/UVing.

So, my questions are :

A) For exporting from Moi, which format I must use : Obj or Fbx or others ?

B) Can I export the model directly from Moi in high-poly version (with the export dialog of Moi) and SEND IT DIRECTLY to the printing service without doing any kind of tweaking ?
I mean, without dealing with "normals" or any other kind of "inside" aspects ?
If I export in this way the 3D Printed object will be smoothed or it will be faceted ?
I mean, if I export a curved solids from Moi, in high-poly version, that area will be "smoothed" into the 3D printed model ?

C) In the same way, can I export directly from 3D-Coat a voxelized model having millions of polygons or I have to "decimate" it before sending to the printing service ?
Also, same considerations about "smoothed" area of the objects...

D) Do you know a good 3D printing service that I could use to make some test ?
Please consider that I don't want to print many pieces but only a very limited amount of pieces (1, or 2-3 for each model and anyway less than 10)


I can imagine that all these questions may sound a little bit messy but as I've said I have zero experience with this topic :)

Thanks to anyone who wants to take part in this conversation.

Have a nice day.

Marco (mkdm)

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Hi Marco!

Here are a few answers I can provide:


A) For exporting from Moi, which format I must use : Obj or Fbx or others ?

— Most print services can handle a range of formats, but keep in mind that STL does not contain color information. For full-color 3D printing I usually use embedded vertex colors in the mesh, exported as WRL (VRML2) or X3D.


B) Can I export the model directly from Moi in high-poly version (with the export dialog of Moi) and SEND IT DIRECTLY to the printing service without doing any kind of tweaking ?
I mean, without dealing with "normals" or any other kind of "inside" aspects ?
If I export in this way the 3D Printed object will be smoothed or it will be faceted ?
I mean, if I export a curved solids from Moi, in high-poly version, that area will be "smoothed" into the 3D printed model ?

— A 3D-print model is always polygonal, except when you use CNC milling techniques I believe. This means it will always be faceted, because a smooth appearance of a mesh is a shader-based rendered illusion. Therefore it is advised to keep your poly count high for smoothly curved 3D-printed surfaces.

— Also very important: make your mesh hollow, with a thin outer wall, before printing it or having it printed. That will keep the material volume low, resulting in a much lower price than printing a fully solid model.


C) In the same way, can I export directly from 3D-Coat a voxelized model having millions of polygons or I have to "decimate" it before sending to the printing service ?
Also, same considerations about "smoothed" area of the objects...

— Last time I checked it, the Shapeways printing service can handle a maximum of about 1 million polygons, so sometimes decimation is needed. But maybe the maximum polygon count has been increased in the mean time.


D) Do you know a good 3D printing service that I could use to make some test ?
Please consider that I don't want to print many pieces but only a very limited amount of pieces (1, or 2-3 for each model and anyway less than 10)

— I'm content with Shapeways, but for more affordable printing you can try a local print hub service, such as https://www.3dhubs.com

— Here's my Shapeways shop: https://shapeways.com/shops/sevensheaven

Have a nice weekend,

Metin

———————

visualization • pixel art • illustration • 3D design — https://metinseven.com

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Hi Marco,

i do usually 3d color printing with MoI at work. In order to that i need to bring the color
models into Blender to export from there as .wrl (VRML). Our printer can handle ( i heard
that from tests from others) file sizes of up to about 1,2 GB without problems.

The popular printing services like Shapeways, sculpteo or i.materialize etc. have all a poly
count / file size limit, so you can't print your many millions of polygons models from 3DCoat
there, unless of course you *drastically* decimate with 3DCoat.

Smoothness of a model depends, as you know, of how many triangles your mesh has. The
best way you can see that imho is if you use an app like Meshlab in flat shaded mode to
see how facetted your model will look like prior you let 3d print it.

Regards
Stefan

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Hi Marco,

one thing also about smoothness. 3D printers (may) produce also stairs on the surface of
the model unless you use a 3D printing technique like for example PolyJet 3D printing
which is very expensive, but imho molds can be made of the models.

Here are three photos. The Batwing cube i have printed in 2009 at Shapeways, smooth
surface but also stairs due to the printers resolution.



The color print of the fractals is a high res print but show also stairs due to the printers
resolution.



And finally Nefertiti printed on a PolyJet printer, bad photo but super high quality print
with fine details and a super smooth surface without stairs.



Regards
Stefan

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Hello Metin and Stefan!

Thank you very much for such a detailed info!!

I think it's a good "ground level" tech info to start my experimentation :)

In the coming days I'm going to test your suggestion and I will let you know.

Also I want to make a quick check of those 3D printing service to check the cost and the other info.

Thanks!

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WOW...Thanks a lot Stefan for photos!

Very cool things!

Many "tech" info here...almost "Arabic" for me at the moment....
I mean, "Arabic" because I still don't know anything about 3D printing :)

If I may, I ask you (also to Metin) a HUGE help....
When in the next days I will have a simple 3D model ready to print, I will post it here before sending to 3D printing service.
Could you please check it quickly to see if it's too bad or at least it has a sufficient quality ?
I will post also a 3D rendering to make a comparison.

Thanks a lot!

Marco (mkdm)

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Sure Marco i can check the model for you.

Regards
Stefan

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Thank you very much!

Meanwhile I registered on Shapeways and this is what they say :



So...no more than 1 Mil polys. I have to decimate when export from 3DCoat.

Also...no more than 64Mb...this could be a problem I suppose...


Marco (mkdm)

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Hi Marco,

yes, file size could be a problem too. i.materialize, i have read, has a file size limit
of 100 MB and sculpteo 50MB if i remember correctly.

I would also strongly recommend that you check you check Shapeways's excellent
printing guide about wall thickness etc.

Regards
Stefan

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@You : "...I would also strongly recommend that you check you check Shapeways's excellent printing guide about wall thickness etc..."

I sure will!

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Hello Stefan and everyone!

I did my VERY FIRST and quick and very coarse test for 3D printing service!

Tese are the results.

I know that it may sound a little "boring" but for this first test I post here all my screen captures to show you the results of this test.

Ok...let's start!

1) I'me made this simple model just to have something to test.
Here you can dowload the 3Dm file : http://take.ms/OtTzD

The size in mm in Moi was : X = 43 Y = 42 Z = 34.5





2) I've exported the model in OBJ format using these settings





3) I've imported the model in 3D-Coat and voxelized it :





4) I've exported the model in OBJ format from 3D-Coat with decimation :
This is how it looks when loaded in MeshLab





5) I have finally sent the obj model exported from 3D-Coat, without any kind of tweaking, to ShapeWays

After the elaboration this is how it looks in ShapeWays and how much it costs :
The dimension are not exactly the same of the Moi file but this is not a problem for me.

This is also the integrity check made by ShapeWays : NO PROBLEM AT ALL!








6) I repeated the same test but this time sending the obj exported from 3D-Coat, without any kind of tweaking, to 3dhubs

NOT WORKED. PROBLEM WITH THE ANALYSIS OF THE MODEL :






7) I repeated the same test but this time sending directly the STEP file exported from MOI, to 3dhubs

NOT WORKED. PROBLEM WITH THE ANALYSIS OF THE MODEL :







THA'S ALL FOR THE MOMENT! .....11 USD (plus tax) is not cheap at all for 1 model :)....anyway....


Thanks to all want to share their comments about my first test :)

Ciao!

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Looking good Marco, bravo!

Interesting that you get errors with the second service, while Shapeways says it is good.

I know also from our printer, for example, that the printer can print models with errors
in it, while our printing check software for our printer would complain too...

BTW. Doesn't 3DCoat has not in the newer Pro version also tools for 3D printing and
checking?

You could also try printing check software like Netfabb basic etc., to see if they give
you errors too.

Regards
Stefan

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Hi Stefan!

Thanks for your encouragement :)

@You : "...BTW. Doesn't 3DCoat has not in the newer Pro version also tools for 3D printing and checking?..."

Sure! 3D-Coat has all tese things, but for the moment I'm not ready to play with these advanced settings.
I don't know what they mean and frankly...for the moment I don't care :)



Anyway...I wanted to repeat the test using a different approach/

This time without 3D-Coat but using direcly the obj file exported from Moi using these settings :



I have exported both to ShapeWays and 3dhubs.

In 3dhubs also this export failed.

In ShapeWays the import was OK but with a more faceted final object compared to the Voxel decimated model exported from 3D-Coat.





I'll keep experimenting, but anyway 11 USD (plus tax) for a single model of 4cm is really too much expensive!!!
They're crazy :)

I have to search another cheaper printing service.

Do you know others ?

Thanks and have anice day.

Marco (mkdm)

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Hi Marco,

> THA'S ALL FOR THE MOMENT! .....11 USD (plus tax) is not cheap at all for 1 model :)....anyway....

You would not believe how expensive printing materials are... and don't forget the people there
who need to be paid too. :-)

Regards
Stefan

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Yes...I understand... but 11 USD (plus tax) for a single model of 4cm is really too much expensive!!!
They're crazy :)

I have to search another cheaper printing service.

Do you know others ?

Thanks.

---

No, i don't know others, sorry.

I, for example, wait for quite the opposite (high cost printing). I am
looking for a while now for 3D Printing Services which allows one to
print color models on the Stratasys J750 Multi Material Printer. It is
a super awesome printer which produces awesome color results.

Regards
Stefan

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Thanks a lot Stefan for your help!!

Last thing for the moment...Did you read my previous post ? http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=8867.13

Do you have any sharing about why using the obj exported directly from Moi the final look is more faceted in ShapeWays rather then the model exported from 3D-Coat ?

@You : "I, for example, wait for quite the opposite (high cost printing)..."

Just out of curiosity...WHY :) ?

Thanks!

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Hi Marco,

i usually export for 3D printing as triangles from MoI and not as NGons.
I assume that Shapeways Display Software displays it not smooth when
not triangles. I would simply do another check with triangles export from
MoI and see if it looks better.

The prints i do at work (in colored sandstone) with MoI look also never
facetted.

Why i look for high cost printing? Maybe i did not formulate my words
good enough... what i mean is i prefer high quality prints when
printing something for myself. And high quality prints are expensive
when using 3D Printing Services.

If i would do a lot of 3D Printing i would maybe look into purchasing
a resin printer which outputs good quality, like the FormLabs2 printer
etc.

Regards
Stefan

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Shrunk images

Image Attachments:
full_man_sm.jpg  half_man_sm.jpg 

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I have a Robo R2 3D Printer. I export from MoI in STL format. From there I open my STL file in Simplyfy3D.

Simplify3D is a slicer program that allows you to specify the print resolution, percentage of infill material, add supports, specify the print temperature, etc. The output of Simplify3D is a GCode file which is sent to my printer over WiFi. GCode is a universal CNC language that runs milling machines, lathes, routers, 3D Printers, etc. The printer has a camera so I can monitor the printing on my PC even though the printer is in another room.

The Robo R2 printer has only a single print head, so the color is defined by the color of plastic filament I load. There are a wide variety of filament types & colors available.

Of course if you use a printing service then they will have their own slicer program, so you only need to send them a STL file straight out of MoI.

Ed Ferguson

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