I was working with 3D on PC first (needed an external frame buffer in those days) using software called Cubicomp which did the first commercial Phong rendering I believe-- probably an 8086 in the very early 80's.
Then I switched to Mac as soon as Jobs introduced it. Of course at first it was only 1 bit, but soon found 8-bit and Super3D and was in heaven, even though the render quality was only flat shading.
Then one day I picked up a Macworld and saw Sculpt 3D, a ray tracer on the Amiga was coming to the Mac. I called the company, Byte by Byte, and went to visit them and the president gave me an Amiga to run it on as the Mac version was a way off. Sculpt3D was a pretty amazing piece of software and I remember creating ray-traced water pitchers for my client Igloo (we were designing products for them). This was before any ray-tracing was on either the PC or Mac. Wickedly exciting at that time.
What fun the Amiga was back then! Next for us, Electric Image came along for the Mac with 640x480 AA Phong shading in under 5 min and things got really interesting. We created a design for the initial lunar habitat for NASA, then a Mars habitat and built 3d walkthroughs and full scale models all back in the late 80's. A couple years later we would standardize our shop on Lightwave on PC (I believe it was V3 or 4), which of course also came from the Amiga. Who can forget the Video Toaster? Newtek eventually moved to San Antonio, just up the road from our shop in Austin. A few years later, using Lightwave, we had fun creating the first cell-shaded TV show: Mission to Avalon. Got it funded, then bad luck with the distribution. An early trailer:
All good and fun memories.
Just released our first AR museum installation at the Witte Museum in San Antonio this past weekend. The full Alamo Reality project will be released later this month. And the better news is we're starting a 3 year AR project on Gettysburg in the next month. 3D has come a long way, but not surprisingly, many of the main issues are still very similar.
Here's one of the mobile AR scenes without final lighting, but there are still the same challenges of bandwidth, polycount, texture sizes, etc..
(out of subject
<< Mars habitat ;)
That is a dream's view : Human can't go to space & Mars! ( brain don't support cosmic ray ! )
(Plomb too heavy - Magnetic field - too power consummng & heavy - Drugs antioxidant - don't yet existing)
BTW. Chipp not to be off-topic here but since you mentioned Electric Image... Did you know
that President Trump's Campaign Manager for 2020 run, Brad Parscale, was the former President
of EITG (Electric Image Technology Group)? Interesting.
I just knew that you also had to have at least some Commodore background. :)
Mission to Avalon looks great. I think it could still be released, with its pleasant retro vibe.
Sculpt 3D, by Dr. Eric Graham, oh yes! The graphics world wasn't the same anymore after Eric's legendary Juggler demo was released, created with a first version of Sculpt 3D. It was the first time I saw ray-tracing on a consumer computer.
I also played around with Sculpt 3D. Later it became Sculpt 4D, with animation. And its main competitor was called Turbo Silver, which was the first bucket renderer I ever saw. Turbo Silver later evolved into Imagine, which was also available for MS-DOS.
Do you also remember Aegis Videoscape? It was a filled-3D-vectors renderer, not a 3D ray-tracer, but it could render almost in realtime back in those days, making it a fabulous tool for 3D animation in the early years. There was this cool demo featuring a red 3D Lotus Esprit, with lots of camera switching.
Hello Metin, Stefan, Pilou, Chip and all other moiers!
What a wanderful conversation about the "golden age" of the history of personal computing and CG!!
Thanks to each of you!!
As I've said....so many memories...how much emotion in remembering those wanderful "pioneer" days !!!!
Now...I apologize if I want to do this "clean break" :) but...I would really like to return to the original subject of this thread, if you want too :)
Always talking about the actual situation of "CG consumer software" I would really like to know what do you think about Vectary, the cloud based Polygonal/SDS free modeler. https://www.vectary.com/dashboard/
For what I've tested so far and based on comparison with many, more or less (or claimed), similar products I think that actually it's the coolest solution to create little 3D object in a Poly/SDS environment.
I would like to know the opinion of you colleagues "moiers".
what i have learned in the past, i could be wrong of course, offers likes this let you believe
they are free and a couple of year later, when you are addicted, then you have to pay...
(I learned that from Photobucket, which i used for many many years for free and later
they changed their plan to paid subscriptions...)
I also don't like to work in a web browser and been connected to the cloud.
The only things which are free are Open Source solutions, like standard Blender installs etc.
I think Vectary looks great, but for polygon subdivision modeling I'll personally stick to Blender.
I'm already using a myriad of independent CG tools, each with their own navigation controls and keyboard shortcuts to remember:
• MoI for hard surface models, for blocking out organic shapes, and for efficient 2D vector editing (before exporting to Affinity Designer to fill and outline the shapes).
• Blender for polygon subdivision modeling, animation, video editing, Dyntopo sculpting and rendering.
• ZBrush for sculpting and retopology.
• 3D-Coat for retopology.
• Keyshot for rendering, next to Blender's Cycles.
• Aseprite for pixel art.
• MagicaVoxel for voxel art.
• Affinity Photo for post-processing images.
• Affinity Designer for 2D vector graphics.
• And so on. :)
But I'm always keeping an eye on the development of interesting software, including Vectary.
@Stefan : "...I also don't like to work in a web browser and been connected to the cloud..."
Hmm...I understand. Usually I don't really like cloud software either, and in fact I have no cloud package into my current pipeline.
And strictly speaking of Poly/SDS most of the time I use the very powerful NVIL/Rocket 3F.
But with that said I have to admin that Vectary is a very interesting software IMHO.
Very good UX, good performance at least if you don't pretend to handle very high poly objects, robust core engine (works very well on every non-mobile platform).
Actually for me it's nothing more than a sort of "digression" from the usual things, but it could have the chance to be included into my pipeline :)
I will continue to testing it ;)
@Stefan : "...when you are addicted, then you have to pay..."
This is not a problem for me. If I consider a software really useful and valuable and developed by a serious company, if its price is low and proportionate to what it offers, then I'm also willing to pay for it.
But for the moment, regarding Vectary, is too early to tell.
For example I want to wait the next important (for me) move of Vectary team. They said that they're working on a "mobile" version.
And this could be a HUGE feature for me because I have an iPad Pro 12.9 second gen and i think it could be an amazing product on that hardware, considering that actually, for what I know, for iPad Pro there isn't any serious and good product dedicated to Poly/SDS modelling.
A mobile version of Vectary could be a game changer for me.
@Metin : "...But I'm always keeping an eye on the development of interesting software, including Vectary...."
I'm not interested in switching tools-- especially to a newcomer unless there are some game changing significant advantages.
Cost of a tool is not too much of a factor one way or another as long as it's not subscription based. I understand the time I will have to invest in learning the tool to the significant level I need to is much more of a one-time cost than the typical cost of the tool. A monthly subscription model isn't appealing as I may go several months without ever using it. That said I do have several subscription based products, but they are all set at 1 year subscriptions (Adobe Creative Cloud, SketchUp, KeyShot, Unity).
I see no killer feature in Vectary which would make me prefer it over Blender or even SketchUp for that matter.
I've said it before...for myself, I need 3D programs in a couple different verticals:
1. Polys: SketchUp (working on transition to Blender)
2. NURBS: MoI (best for CAD, hard surface modelings, 3d printing, Industrial Design)
3. Topology: 3D Coat (also great for UV Mapping and voxelizing poly models)
4. Rendering: KeyShot and Unity
5. Surfacing: Substance Painter
For now, that's just about all the time I have bandwidth for. I would like to learn Marvelous Designer at some point, but again, just don't have the bandwidth.
"Do you also remember Aegis Videoscape? It was a filled-3D-vectors renderer, not a 3D ray-tracer, but it could render almost in realtime back in those days, making it a fabulous tool for 3D animation in the early years. There was this cool demo featuring a red 3D Lotus Esprit, with lots of camera switching."
I do remember Videoscape, but never used it-- as I only had the Amiga on loan for Sculpt3D.
As I recall, the "vector rendered" algorithms used a z-depth sort calculating the center of a given polygon and frequently had problems showing polygons in the correct depth sort order. Fast, but unfortunately sometime not very accurate. Super3D on the Mac had the both a pixel based sort algorithm along with the polygon based sort algorithm. It was fast, but perhaps not as fast as Videoscape. That said, at the time, many animated solutions used a frame buffer approach where they would stuff as many images as possible into available video ram and then play them back as possible. The smarter ones used temporal compression where they only stored diff pixels from one screen to the next.
I have to admit that in those days Apple was some kind of blind spot to me as a Commodore user. I remember there was a strong pillarization between systems in the 1980s, also because there was no public internet yet. To a Commodore user, Apple computers were expensive systems targeted at people who weren't very computer-savvy. This was emphasized by the one-button mouse that came with the Macintosh. I remember looking a bit down upon Mac users in my Amiga days. That's what you do when you're still a youngster: you're biased and narrow-minded about certain things, while you think you know everything. :)
I guess not a lot has changed in the digital realm, reading the never-ending word wars between Google and Apple users these days. The irony is that I'm an avid Apple user nowadays, after many years of working with Windows since the Amiga had slowly died away in the course of the 1990s. But I've never become a fanboy of any system or OS. I always want to remain critical and objective.
@You : "...I'm not interested in switching tools-- especially to a newcomer unless there are some game changing significant advantages..."
I agree.
In fact, regarding Vectary, as I've said, for the moment it's nothing more than a "testing platform" and I'm waiting above all its porting on a mobile device, specifically iPad Pro.
That would be a great game changer for me.
Because actually, I'm finding a way to build a "complete" 2d/3d pipeline to do, I will not say "all" but "many", CG works entirely on the iPad Pro because I want to leverage on its incredible interactive display and its Pencil and some of its amazing Apps
But at the moment (and I've reviewed and tested almost ALL majors and most important apps for iPad Pro), there's nothing that allows me to create from scratch a 2D/3D image composition work.
For the iPad Pro the actual situation is this, at least for what I know and I've tested and reviewed so far :
1) If we remain in 2D CG there's no problem :) Actually I can build a complete pipeline to do almost all my 2D works :
A) Digital Painting : Procreate 4, Sketckbook Pro, Paintstorm Studio, Clip Studio Paint, Infinite Painter, Inspire Pro, SketchClub, MediBang Paint
B) 2D Vector painting with infinite zoom and infinite canvas : the amazing "Concepts"
C) 2D classic vector drawing : the excellent "Autodesk Graphic", Assembly (quick and easy vector App)
D) Digital image processing : The AMAZING Affinity Photo, Snapseed, Pixelmator, PhotoLab, Trigraphy, Comics, Plotaverse, VSCO
E) 2D "not usual" : state of the art "Frax HD" , FIngerpaint, Forge of Neon, Recolor, Silk, Flame Painter, Insprit
F) 3D fractal : MandelbulbHD, QJulia HD
So, with those apps I can create almost all my 2D works.
And, the most important thing for me, with almost all those Apps I can create PRINT QUALITY images with resolution up to A2 or in some cases A1 at 300dpi!!!
2) But when it comes to 3D the situation is still not so good if you want to build from scratch a 3D rendering or at least a "pseudo rendering".
Actually I can create 3D content ON iPad Pro with these Apps :
A) Nurbs Cad : the EXCELLENT OnShape. Very powerful cloud based 3D Cad
B) Goxel : A sufficient iOS alternative to "MagicaVoxel" (on Windows)
C) 3D Scultpting Apps : Putty 3D, Forger. BUT these Apps IMHO are almost unusable. Too difficult to create good things with them.
So, too few things as you can see.
Ok, I can EXPORT obj or ply objects from them but UNFORTUNATELY the big issue is that there isn't any tool at the moment to load and visualize a 3D objects in iPad Pro and APPLY MATERIALS AND EXPORT THE RENDER IN PRINT QUALITY RESOLUTION.
This is the big issue for me because if I want to build a complete 2D/3D pipeline on the iPad Pro I NEED a tool that allows me to render the 3DObjects and export the render in print quality resolution and with a good overall quality (antialiasing).
The current "display resolution" of the iPad Pro, 2732x2048 is too low for me. Not good for print quality.
Final recap :
1) If I talk about 2D, actually iPad Pro is good enough for me to build a complete 2D Pipeline :)
2) If I talk about 3D the Apps on iPad Pro are not sufficient. There's any tools to load a 3D scene, apply materials, also a simple MatCap, and export the render in print quality resolution.
The lack of this features doesn't allow me to create from scratch simple 3D content on iPad Pro and export the render to create my 2D/3D image composition.
How does working professionally with iOS on the iPad Pro compare to working with a full-fledged traditional OS, such as Mac OS or Windows?
I've got an iPad Air, and to me it's not much more than an oversized smartphone I use to relax on the couch at the end of a day. I can't imagine working really efficiently without the freedom of a desktop OS with full file management capacity.
I used a Wacom Cintiq for a while, connected to my iMac. It was like working with a giant iPad, but it had too many drawbacks:
1: My hand was too much in the way of my sight, haha.
2: The screen quality (colors, dynamics) was not as good as an iMac screen.
3: The screen became dirty quickly, forcing me to wear gloves, which also became dirty. :)
4: My arm got tired of the continuous movement over the large screen area.
5: It took too much space on my desk. I was constantly changing the placement of my keyboard, and Wacom's on-screen keyboard simply sucks.
6: Mac OS multi-screen support is not as customisable as I hoped it would be. For example, you don't have total control over where your Dock appears when you have two screens, and you can't simply switch off one screen.
7: Mac OS does not have very good touch-screen support, as none of Apple's Mac OS devices have a touch-screen.
8: The slight lag between the pen tip and the actual brush crosshair annoyed me a bit, especially when you move your pen rapidly.
So after about half a year I sold my Wacom Cintiq again, and bought a Wacom Intuos Pro Medium in stead, with which I am very happy.
@You "...How does working professionally with iOS on the iPad Pro compare to working with a full-fledged traditional OS, such as Mac OS or Windows?
I've got an iPad Air, and to me it's not much more than an oversized smartphone I use to relax on the couch at the end of a day. I can't imagine working really efficiently without the freedom of a desktop OS with full file management capacity..."
First and foremost : iPad Pro and iOS can't absolutely be a replacement of my desktop rig (Windows Pro 10, i7-7700K, Gtx Nvidia 1080 Ti).
No way to do that :) and ....it's normal!
But...believe me...iPad Air and iPad Pro second generation are two very different universes :)
I say this based on my practical experience and not by hearsay :)
I hate iOS, terrible OS, but with iPad Pro12.9 second generation and Apple Pencil I can create 2D works IN MOBILITY with professional quality.
If you don't believe me you can ask to many professional digital artists on YouTube and read tons of reviews :)
Always talking about 2D CG works and not 3D for what I've experienced so far, iPad Pro is very good not only on mobility, where actually is without doubt the BEST device for digital paintings and 2D works, but thanks to some of its best Apps, in some cases it can compete also with many desktop PC/Laptop.
For 2D works actually it beats any Wacom device (under and up to 15.6 inches) and at a fraction of cost.
@Me : "For 2D works actually it beats any Wacom device (under and up to 15.6 inches) and at a fraction of cost."
Evidently I meant any "interactive Wacom display" (Cintiq family under and up to 15.6 inches) and not the classic graphic tablet like Intuos Pro medium (I have also that model and it's very good.)
When it comes to UX there really shouldn't be a demarcation when it comes to the user type, either they have use for the tool or they don't. I see this all the time when I do UX for technical applications, a doctor, researcher or engineer will have just as much appreciation for a great user experience as a hobbyist or student.
I would have preferred that McNeel picked a side when it came to Rhino / Grasshopper. Either they stick with the Rhino UX or go all in on the Grasshopper UX.
I could go into the reasons why Blender has one of the worst UXs of all time but it wouldn't be anything that any other UX designer hasn't beaten to death already. Blender will never be anything other than a niche product because it's horrible usability holds it back.
I believe the next wave of winners will be the companies that realize the importance of a great UX. MoI is well positioned in this regard.
Have you checked out the Internet Archive of old software? Can you believe DPaint is over 30 years old? It doesn't seem like that long ago.
@You : "...I used iPad was always the little known neu.notes+..."
Thanks for the tip. For my 2D vector painting I use the excellent "Concepts" because it's highly optimized for iPad Pro, but for sure I'm going to take a deep look also to "neu.notes+".
@You : "...FWIW, I've switched to Android tablets and now mostly use the Android equipped Google Pixelbook..."
Oh...great device, no doubt. Was one the devices that I reviewed before buying the iPad Pro.
It's without doubt a very very capable all-rounder device with the "plus" of the Android OS that I much prefer over the "very bad" iOS (also iOS 11 is bad IMHO :)
It has great overall performance. A Very good piece of HW/SW from Samsung.
But as I've said some times ago here on this forum, I spent many months collecting all possible information from YouTube, web, opinion from artists, before buying the iPad Pro 12.9 second gen.
Bear in mind that I purchased the iPad Pro for ONE and ONLY one reason : having the best (actually) device for digital painting in mobility.
I use it almost exclusively for that purpose and sometimes for some quick video editing with the excellent Lumafusion.
So after tested many many things and considered all aspects and listened the opinion of many very talented digital painters, I purchased this iPad.
From the point of view of a all-rounder device, the Google Pixelbook or the Microsoft Surface (at least their top tier versions) are a better choice compared to iPad Pro, for many reasons.
But when it comes to digital drawing on an interactive and multitouch canvas iPad Pro actually has no competitors.
With the most Apps the Apple Pencil has really almost ZERO parallax and ZERO lag, the display is awesome and with the best color calibration compared to the extra-saturated OLED display, with Apps like Procreate or Sketckbook Pro the Apple pencil is amazing, super fast and has the most natural feel you can find in a digital stylus.
And it has excellent tilt support (with the right Apps) and with the 120Hz refresh rate display it's....awesome.
So, from the point of view of "digital painting" and "2d work" actually no other interactive display can beat the iPad Pro.
But...clearly it has also some cons that I really don't like :
- The Pencil feels to much like "rubber on glass". You have to get used to its behavior before creating good digital paintings
- Not so many Apps leverage on the processing power of the iPad Pro. Many apps are not optimized for it.
- The pencil need recharging and has no buttons
- The screen is not enough oleophobic (for my liking)
- iOS....iOS....what can say....I really hate it !!!! Android it's far better!!!!
Anyway...I purchased the iPad Pro almost only for digital paintings and 2D works and for this purpose it's still the best.
