Full Version: V4 beta Feb-9-2018 available now

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Hello Michael.

@You : "...thanks for the benchmark data!"

You're welcome Michael!

Please, as soon as you finish this first beta stage period, start to improve Moi's viewport performance using all GPU available power :)
When heavy models are loaded, like the engine picked from GrabCad, viewport standard operations, like rotate, pan, zoom, are actually extremely slow, when using a mesh angle of 5, also on my Gtx 1080 Ti.

Ok. I know that I can set mesh angle to a greater value, but at a cost of a coarse rendering of the curved surfarces.

These are the benchmark when rotating the maximized 3D viewport (based on the value displayed and the upper left corner of the viewport)
The model is always the "engine" that I download from GrabCad and then converted (3dm file of 385 Mb)

Mesh angle of 5 : 616 millisecs and 5.5 Gb of ram occupied
Mesh angle of 7 : 224 millisecs and 3.1 Gb of ram occupied
Mesh angle of 10 : 194 millisecs and 2.9 Gb of ram occupied (quality of rendering of curved surfaces is starting to get coarse when the camera is close to surfaces)
Mesh angle of 15 : 80 millisecs and 2.2 Gb of ram occupied (quality of rendering of curved surfaces is starting to get coarse even with wider zoom)
Mesh angle of 20 : 77 millisecs and 2.1 Gb of ram occupied (quality of rendering of curved surfaces is coarse)
Mesh angle of 25 : 50 millisecs and 1.9 Gb of ram occupied (quality of rendering of curved surfaces is coarse)

Hope this benchmark can help you :)

Thanks for all your support!

Ciao.

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Hi Michael,

I may have found a bug. When using rotate (right click) with a framing model for a house, MoI 4 beta, the system hesitates frequently. Sometimes it takes up to 30 seconds to recover and at times reverts to a previous view. It is a fairly large file but not huge by any means. A couple of times it killed MoI and I had to start it up again.

This does not happen with Rhino using the same model (and various view styles) and it does not happen with my laptop (a considerably less powerful machine). I also ran this model on a client's All in One older Acer Aspire with no problem

My main system is Windows 10, i7 with 16 GB ram and an Nvidea 1060 with 6GB. It has the latest drivers. My Displaythread limit =1

After a lot of repetitive testing I have come to the conclusion that this may be a conflict between Nvidea and MoI 4. I have had this video card for a couple of months and did not experience this problem. This model currently does not have any problems with MoI Ver 3.

MoI is my favorite modeler and I use it for nearly everything by choice and switch to Rhino for annotation and dimensions as well as Octane for Rhino, so I am finding this problem a little disconcerting.

Cheers,
eric

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Hi Marco,

> Ok. I know that I can set mesh angle to a greater value, but at a cost of a
> coarse rendering of the curved surfarces.

One thing you may not be aware of - the mesh angle does not have any effect on the shaded background image generated by AI and PDF export, that generates a custom mesh that's dynamically refined to the canvas resolution.

So even if you set a coarse display mesh resolution, you will still get high quality during the AI export process.

A coarser viewport rendering does not really do any harm during modeling, so if the problem is that you are having sluggish display performance while modeling the solution is just as you write here, set the mesh angle to a higher value so the display mesh is not so heavy.

I do plan on improving the performance for video cards with high VRAM available (about 75% of the infrastructure needed for this is in place now) but there is already a solution you can use right now which is effective.

- Michael

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@You : "...One thing you may not be aware of - the mesh angle does not have any effect on the shaded background image generated by AI and PDF export, that generates a custom mesh that's dynamically refined to the canvas resolution..."

Perfect! I didn't know.
For the moment this should be enough.

@You : "...I do plan on improving the performance for video cards with high VRAM available..."

Good to know. When Moi will have also this improvements it will be wanderful :)

Thanks a lot!

Marco (mkdm)

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Hi eric, thanks for reporting the display problem.

>
> I have had this video card for a couple of months and did not experience this problem.

Do you mean that previous versions of v4 did not have the problem?

Or is it that it only seems to happen with one particular model and not with other models?

Is it possible for you to send me the model by e-mail at moi@moi3d.com so I can test with it over here?

Thanks, - Michael

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Hi Max, re trackpad issue #1:

> 1.
> Run MoI (v4 Feb-9 Mac)
> Open Nodeeditor window
> Place mouse cursor over NE window
> Try to use two-finger scroll
> (issue) sometimes MoI fires a mousewheel event instead of trackpad scroll event (zooming instead of scrolling)

I couldn't make this happen at first but eventually I was able to. It happens if you do an initial index finger touch over one window, then drag your index finger keeping it constantly in contact over to another window and then add in the second finger without ever having released the index finger.

MoI is mistakenly only detecting one touch in this case. Unfortunately Apple does not provide any built in method for determining if a scroll event came from a trackpad or a mouse wheel. MoI has to figure that out manually by keeping track of touch events and seeing that there are 2 active touches at the time of the scroll.

Hopefully it will be an easy tuneup. Right now you should see that it won't happen if you lift up your index finger and then put down 2 at once to do scrolling.

One other note on the new node editor trackpad support - I think it's not good to set:
this.canvas_moved = true;
in the trackpadgestureHandler, over here at least it makes it a little difficult to get the context menu on a 2 finger right-click because if you move even the slightest amount while doing the right click this.canvas_moved = true; gets set and then that's used to ignore the context menu event. It seems to be used to disable the right click context menu that would be triggered after a right-click drag when the click is released. But a scroll event won't automatically trigger a context menu event like a right click will so it shouldn't be needed for the trackpad.

Thanks for reporting the bug!

- Michael

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Hi Michael,

Many thanks for the new beta, much appreciated.

I've done some quick tests on MacOS:

• Appdata commands folder: works!

• Separation of Alt and Command keyboard shortcuts: works! Great!

• Extrude responsiveness: better now!

• Alt+RMB view manipulation: works! I'm very pleased with this, many thanks! I can now fully synchronise MoI's viewport navigation with the navigation in ZBrush. Now let's hope Wacom soon fixes the driver issue that causes a viewport to become inactive until left-clicked.

— My only remark is that after the initialisation of any object, shape or solid, the realtime size manipulation in the viewport feels slightly unresponsive / laggy. This is the first time I notice that, but I can't say with full certainty if it was better in the previous beta. It might also have something to do with the latest High Sierra AMD graphics drivers update.

— One last, very minor reminder: the viewport indicator text labels (Front, Left, etc.) are still tiny on a Retina display.

Thanks,

Metin

———————

visualization • illustration • animation • 3D (print) design — https://metinseven.com

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Hi Michael ...

After I experimented some more yesterday I did an incremental save. This morning I cannot duplicate the problem. I rotated it many times ... sometimes fast and sometimes slowly ... up, down and about. No problem.

It's a mystery to me. I'll let you know if this happens again.

cheers,
eric

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Persisting ... I tried an older 'save' and cannot duplicate the problem.
cheers,
eric

---

Hi eric,

> Persisting ... I tried an older 'save' and cannot duplicate the problem.

It's likely to be some bug in the display driver that only manifests intermittently. If you run into it again probably try rebooting your machine to let the video driver start totally fresh again and keep on the lookout for new driver releases which will hopefully fix it up. Or on Windows 10 it looks like there is a shortcut for resetting the video driver by using the key combination: Ctrl+Win+Shift+B , that would be more convenient than rebooting.

If it starts happening frequently you might also want to try installing an older driver to see if that works better until a newer driver is available.

Another thing that I'll do is add in an option for the next beta to make MoI use OpenGL on Windows rather than Direct3D11 as it currently does. Usually the Direct3D drivers are much more robust than OpenGL but maybe you've got a case where it happens to be the reverse.

- Michael

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Hi Michael
>> One other note on the new node editor trackpad support - I think it's not good to set: this.canvas_moved = true;
>> in the trackpadgestureHandler, over here at least it makes it a little difficult to get the context menu on a 2 finger right-click
>> because if you move even the slightest amount while doing the right click this.canvas_moved = true; gets set and then that's used to ignore the context menu event.

Yes, you're right. I removed this command. Thank you.

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Hello Michael!

If I have understood correctly, V4 is built upon a new Webkit, or whatever Webview it's based on.

So my question is : Does Moi V4 support jQuery and Local Storage via for example PouchDB
(PouchDB is a lightweight implementation of CouchDB, the famous No-Sql database)

It would be amazing if now we could leverage on that technologies!!

With jQuery and PouchDB we could for example write some powerful plugin especially dedicated to analyze and store all info of any 3dm file,
or we could write some powerful search engine strictly tied to the metadata of the objects in a 3dm file.

I stay tuned :)

Marco (mkdm)

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Thanks Michael ...
It is also possible that I did not get the newest driver properly installed the first time I downloaded it. It only works if Java is installed. Java install will only work on Internet Explorer and not on Chrome (my usual browser). Late last night I managed to get Java installed and then reinstalled the Nvidea driver. That may have been the solution ... certainly no display problem today.
Cheers and thanks again,
eric

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Hi Marco, yes it uses QtWebKit. Several modules that aren't used by MoI itself though are disabled in order to reduce binary size. I'm not sure about local storage but probably it's disabled. jQuery should work though.

- Michael

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Hi eric, that's great I hope it stays working! Please let me know if it starts happening again though.

Thanks, - Michael

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@You : "...jQuery should work though..."

Excellent!!! ASAP I will try to see if and how it works.

@You : "...to reduce binary size...I'm not sure about local storage but probably it's disabled..."

I remember that some time ago you already answered about this matter of binary size, but I didn't understand why is so important this aspect.
I ask this only from the point of view of a software developer.
Let's say that if you enable the QtWebKit module that handle local storage, you will increase the binary size of Moi of about, let's say, some megabyte.
This increment could in some way degrade the performance of Moi's CAD engine ?
If this is not the case I think that it could be great if you could give us the chance to write a new "family" of plugins that could leverage on "No-Sql database/local storage"

What do you think ?
Is it feasible ?

Thanks. I stay tuned.

Marco (mkdm)

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Hi Marco,

> I remember that some time ago you already answered about this matter of binary
> size, but I didn't understand why is so important this aspect.
> I ask this only from the point of view of a software developer.

It's just a general attribute of high quality software - that it's lean and doesn't take a long time to download and install, doesn't take up a whole lot of disk space, doesn't take a long time to start up, etc...


> What do you think ?
> Is it feasible ?

It might be feasible to turn it on in the future if MoI needs to use a database store for storing history information. But it's very likely that it would use SQLite and not a No-sql engine.

- Michael

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Hi Michael,

I think i maybe found possible memory leak/bug in latest beta.

What i did is i scaled up that model i sent you hour ago and i scaled it 100x (to be bigger) but my export settings OBJ left on last used when object was smaller so i had angle set to 3 and divide to larger than 2 so Moi started generating poly-count, it took minute or so and it was processed to 22% and it already used 38GB of System RAM so i concluded it won't have enough ram to finish operation and then I canceled export. BUT my MOI is even 5 minutes later still not properly responding properly and GUI is slow and staggering, Memory usage oscillated from initial 38GB at processing back to 1 GB and then go up to 5GB (now is at 7GB while i type this message so it's been 8 minutes since i clicked cancel and popup window closed) but my CPU usage is still 1-2% (1 core used at full/max).

Since you have that model (NDA) you might wanna try do that to see is it memory leak or some other kind of bug.

cheers

Image Attachments:
MOI_Ram_usage.jpg 

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Thanks a lot Michael for your reply.

@You : "...It might be feasible to turn it on in the future if MoI needs to use a database store for storing history information..."

I understand your point of view. No problem.
Anyway I hope that some day you will decide to enable Local Storage. :)

@You : "...But it's very likely that it would use SQLite and not a No-sql engine..."

Two questions :

1) If I decide to use SQLite, can I access it directly from Moi's scripts/command ?
Is this solution good for both WIndows/Mac version of Moi ?
What I want to say is : if I decide to write a plugin that should manage a SqlLite database inside some commands/script written for Moi V4,
can I "write once - run everywhere" ? Here for "everywhere" I mean both Windows and Mac version of Moi.
Or for example, if I want to access a SQLite db from within a Moi script, I must run Moi in admin mode on Windows or do other kind of "trick" on Mac ?

2) SQLite or not, I think that at least I could work on a bunch of JSON files, used for storing all the data that I want to manage.
Same thoughts like question 1. In this case "write once - run everywhere" ?

Thanks a lot for your kind support.
I stay tuned.

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Hi Lewis - I think Divide larger than of 2 is probably too small for your 100x scaled object, try like 20 or 10. Just at 5 it's generating 4 million polygons.

The strange behavior is probably from having memory get swapped out to disk, everything will grind to a halt and perform very poorly once that starts going.

It is possible to limit the amount of memory that MoI will use on Windows, there's a setting in moi.ini under:

[Settings]
MaxProcessMemoryUseGB=

If you set that to say 1/2 of your system ram that should make MoI fail when it reaches that level instead of having things bog down so much.

- Michael

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