Full Version: SubDs...are they becoming a niche toolset?

From: OSTexo [#8]
 30 Oct
To: ALL

Hello,

In my opinion the whole SubD thing was an ultimately poor solution to an existing problem. Tools to perform easy control point modeling and continuity operations are lacking so this was an attempt to address that issue. I do think there are some interesting developments on the horizon but the first toolset to make those operations highly usable will win.

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From: Marc (TELLIER) [#9]
 31 Oct
To: ALL

I’ve been using Nurbs for illustrations maquettes for 10 years now.
It’s ridiculously faster than subdivisions, but of course polygonal software is useful when needed.

Being focused on user interaction and simplicity, Moi makes a striking difference in the landscape.

I guess it also comes down to preferences, my brain must be curve based.

Marc

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From: futagoza (STEFAN) [#10]
 31 Oct
To: ALL

https://community.foundry.com/discuss/topic/136219/art-with-ice-cream

Sorry couldn't resist. :-)

Regards
Stefan

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From: chippwalters [#11]
 31 Oct
To: ALL

I think we all know this is not only SubDs... And could easily be done in 3D Coat or ZBrush-- perhaps even more easily.

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From: Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) [#12]
 1 Nov
To: ALL

I see a big philosophic difference :)

When you use Nurbs you know exactly the form that you want!
When you use SubD you don't know exactly the form that you will obtain! :)
it's always a surprise (good or bad :)

There is an interesting thread about that on SketchUcation! (34 pages growing of examples of what I say! :)
https://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=397&t=63826


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From: Metin Seven (METINSEVEN) [#13]
 3 Nov
To: ALL

"You need to be a member to view images." :( I can't see any of the posted screenshots / renderings in the subd thread.

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From: Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) [#14]
 3 Nov
To: ALL

Ahhhh yes!
Sorry you must free register for see images who are directly published on their forum ! (not external linked)!

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From: Metin Seven (METINSEVEN) [#15]
 3 Nov
To: ALL

:)

Here's a 154-page alternative forum thread about subdivision modeling:

http://polycount.com/discussion/56014/how-the-f-do-i-model-this-reply-for-help-with-specific-shapes-post-attempt-before-asking

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From: PaQ [#16]
 3 Nov
To: ALL

Hi Pilou,

//
When you use Nurbs you know exactly the form that you want!
When you use SubD you don't know exactly the form that you will obtain! :)
it's always a surprise (good or bad :)
//

The problem is that most of us need to use SubD in a predictable way, where there is no room for surprise.
And the only way to archive this control is with a lot of practice (and planing) ... creating edge loop in every direction, fighting with surface distortion etc.
It's not a very funny process, at least not any more after a couple of years.

In the other hand SubDs is the only modeling technique that can tackle any subject, from organic to mechanic, and that's probably the reason its far to be 'dead' yet.

Fortunately we can now convert SudDs cage model into a Nurbs surface, and somehow take advantage of the best of those 2 modeling method.

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From: kevjon [#17]
 4 Nov
To: ALL

Still much easier to UV map a sub'd mesh than a somewhat messy mesh generated from Nurbs Surfaces.
Also you have to be really careful to keep your normals data intact before rendering a nurbs generated mesh.

With Sub'ds you can model anything you think of. Modern retopology tools are overcoming many of sub'ds shortfalls. Its still time consuming though.

Nurbs are really at their best for hard surface objects.

I don't know if it will ever happen but a program that has the speed & power of nurbs and the tweakability of sub'ds would be really cool. Modo's meshfusion is an attempt at this but still generates a messy mesh.

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From: chippwalters [#18]
 4 Nov
To: ALL

Yes, you are correct about UVs. Still, have you tried out 3DC's UV tools for NURBS polys? The auto mapper is pretty darn good and can often suffice with a single button click. I use it all the time. Here's a quick video of some of the easy to use features.

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From: Andrei Samardac [#19]
 6 Nov
To: ALL

Ah, some kind of flashback :)
Couple of years ago I started topic like this and there was huge battle:)
I just want to say what I learned from that time, guys do not waste your time posting on forums to debate with each other, just do your job, it will be much more effective to learn things:)
There are thousands of designers that use NURBS, there are thousands of designers that use Polygons, there are thousands of designers that use Sculpting, everybody uses the instruments they need, because there is no any universal tool!!!

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From: chippwalters [#20]
 6 Nov
To: ALL

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating one over the other for everyone. It's just my observation that there is a shift in focus among many of the top concept design modelers that I know and follow.

Of course everyone should use whatever tool they like.

That said, paying attention to shifts in trends makes sense as the technology in the space moves so quickly.

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From: futagoza (STEFAN) [#21]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

Fully agree with PaQ, about carefully planning and knowing in advance what you do.

Here is also (once again... :-)) a very good example of the ZModeler brush:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?209559-Tamotsu-Kishida-s-Sketchbook

I wonder how many times fillets etc. would fail on such a complex model and if NURBS
modeling would be really faster than subd modeling. One other advantage is also dynamic
subdivision (rendering), so that poly count can be kept low when saving, compared to a
frozen subd mesh.

Pixologic must had a good reason to implement the ZModeler brush in 4R7... :-)

But i agree, one should use the tools one is most comfortable with.

Regards
Stefan

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From: Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) [#22]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

Tools are not the more important ... just imagination! :) (sure they can help but...

My French friend Orgelf make some crazzy things with SketchUp! :) http://www.orgelf.com





or Xlrlxi (always SketchUp) Gallery : https://600v.deviantart.com/gallery/

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From: futagoza (STEFAN) [#23]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

Interesting Pilou, that SketchUp can handle models with a large poly count!

Regards
Stefan

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From: Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) [#24]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

Maybe not like ZBrush but sufficient for crazzy things! :)
By Orgelf


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From: mkdm [#25]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

Hi Pilou.

Wanderful stuff is doing your friend Orgelf!!

@You : "...Tools are not the more important ... just imagination! :)..."

I agree with you

Just imagination, hundreds of hours of studying and practicing and....talent.

Yes. I think that ALL starts from talent you received.
Starting with that, you can work and strive to become a "true artist".

If you don't have the "natural" talent for a certain thing, with the strive and the hard work certainly you will be able to do even very good things,
but becoming a true amazing "artist" I think it's a thing reserved only to a very small part of the mankind.

Ciao!

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From: mkdm [#26]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

P.S. When I say "true artist" I'm thinking to the various "humanity's genes" that are all "heritage of humanity."

Galileo, Raffaello, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Picasso, etc... etc...


:)

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From: Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) [#27]
 7 Nov
To: ALL

Can we imagine what these geants should made with the computers tools! ;)

Another cool show! :)
https://www.artstation.com/orgelf/albums/all



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