Full Version: PBR pipeline for MOI3D using 3D COAT and KEYSHOT

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Yep voxels are funny things! (a 1*1*1 cube(s) of pixel :)
they are apparent inside 3DCoat and editable!
they are hidden inside ZBrush! (some functions use them but transparent for the user! ;)

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Hi Chipp,

i do have 3DCoat (edu) too and have read that switching from Voxel to Surface mode is the way to go, when finalizing a model. I do think also that 3DCoat does not have the crispness and models looks mostly woobly compared to those sharp sculpts seen from ZBrush. But i will test this when i have obtained my copy of ZBrushCore.

Regards
Stefan

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Hi chippwalters,

And thank you very much for sharing your progress in 3D-Coat learning!
Much appreciated!
And I like your hard-surface style. (although I must admit that I'm not much for robots and weapons in general...)

Over the past few weeks I spent much garbage time to dig into 3D-Coat and more I use it more I understand how smart is this software.
Yes, it's true that, for the moment, the polished and crisp results achievable with ZBrush 4R7 modelling arsenal are undoubtedly better than 3D-Coat,
but admittedly it depends very much on the skill level of the artist (and I'm not very skilled...)

Talking about ZBrush Core vs 3D-Coat, I think that the debate is worthless.
3D-Coat Amateur version costs around 100$ and offers all the tools of the standard version :
Voxel, Surface, Boolean, UVing, Texturing, Painting, Baking, Retopo, etc, etc...

So...3D-Coat beats Z Core 10 to 1!

Anyway, I think that if we strictly talk about modelling tool-set, although 3D-Coat Voxel’s are a Swiss army knife,
the power and versatility of ZBrush’s bushes and modelling tool-set is actually unreachable.

> FWIW, I bought and watched most of Jama's Intro to 3D Concept Design tutorials. He's quite the talent, and really does work 3D Coat magically, but unfortunately he's really weak on actually teaching the basics of what he's doing. He misses a lot of steps and doesn't explain very well HOW he does things. Still, it is very inspirational to watch him work and I do think he put a lot of thought into his workflows.

If you haven't already done, let's take a deep look to the official youtube 3D-Coat channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/PILGWAY3DCoat/playlists).
There you will find a huge amounts of tutorials on almost every aspect of 3D-Coat.

Thanks again and have a nice day!

- Marco (mkdm)

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Hi futagoza,

> Voxel to Surface mode is the way to go, when finalizing a model.

Yes, this is a good workflow in 3D-Coat :

1) A first and coarse model, done in low/mid voxel density
2) Using voxel tool-set, especially boolean tools.
3) Increase the voxel's density while modelling details
4) Switch to surface mode + Live clay brush for the finest details

Nice day,

- Marco (mkdm)

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I'm still using mudbox so very interested in 3D Coat and how well it generally works for retopo, UV, painting, modeling. Love to see your and other vids on that Chipp.

Funny, I'm able to get pretty good models that are organic out of mudbox and feel it's a descent tool but it's obviously way behind Zbrush and other sculpting specific packages these days. However it's pretty fast and works pretty well. It's not very good at making hard surface sculpts however so I use moi for that specifically and Maya.

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A quick robot I 'sketched' using 3D Coat. It certainly can't do hi rez models (though this one was some 50 million polys) but it's really fast for generating concepts.
CLICK to view full size.



The other thing is it has a really nice object model and go do instances and hierarchies simply. Something I'm hoping for in MoI v4!

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6 liberties ?

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Hi chippwalters,

Thanks for your post. It's a very good work !
We already knew your talent and it seems that you are getting better and better with 3D-Coat.

> It certainly can't do hi rez models (though this one was some 50 million polys)

50M polys aren't enough for you ? :)
I can say you that with the right lighting and/or texturing far fewer polys are enough to render an excellent prototype.

If you have free time take a look at this (First Official Contest Winners) :
http://3dcoat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19893-first-official-contest-winners/

I think that you are not so far from that quality :)
What do you think ?

In the last weeks I played a lot with 3D-Coat, and I can say that it's very funny modelling with it,
but for the moment, my skill in Retopo and Texuring are very weak.

P.S. Here's a very interesting collection of smart materials : http://3dcoat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18542-smart-material-procedural/
( buy at https://gumroad.com/michaelgdrs)

Have a nice day,

- Marco (mkdm)

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As in 6 axis of movement? Yes. One needs that many axis for fine positioning at the point of the hand. (Hell-- what do I know-- I just made that up!)

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Hi Marco,

As I mentioned previously, I'm looking to 3D Coat for primarily 2 functions:

1. To help UV MoI models and apply realistic textures to them
2. To quickly sketch ideas faster than what I can do in MoI

Well to tell the truth I really didn't do (2) above very well on this one. I do believe I may have been able to model this faster in MoI, but that's because I'm just learning the 3D Coat tools. Plus it doesn't hurt that I'm switching back and forth between Mac and PC.

A couple things 3D Coat did do for me:

1. I was able to create instances and object hierarchies which helped tremendously in rotating the arm assemblies
2. I am able to 'refine' my model quicker as I can easily stretch and pull and manipulate forms as they are being created *as well* as afterwards. As we all know, once we create a fillet in MoI, we're pretty much locked into the shape unless we want to spend a lot of time ungluing, editing and stitching it back up.

One thing I don't see me doing anytime soon is using the Retopo tools as I think it will end up being too time consuming. But, who knows?

Michael, if you're reading this, I'm really starting to see the value of a Gizmo tool in a perspective window-- and something you may want to reconsider. It's especially handy when trying to position all these robot joints with different rotations and translations-- something very difficult to do in orthographic views.

-C

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Hi Chipp, I haven't ruled out having a gizmo for MoI too, I just had a higher priority on having a 2D edit frame first instead. The edit frame's big advantage is that it's very low profile, not taking up much screen space and going around the outside of selected objects rather than right smack in the middle of everything. That makes it possible to just have it on all the time.

I still have a little bit of hope to try and make an outer 3D edit frame that might retain some of those qualities, I'll probably want to do some experimentation with that first before giving up and just going with the regular kind.

- Michael

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Hi chippwalters,

and thank you for your reply.

Regarding the tools that 3D-Coat provide, keep in mid this very good workflow :

1) Use Voxel modelling to define the main shape of your model.
A great feature of Voxels is the way they easily and quickly handle boolean operations.

2) Increase the Voxel density during the refinement of the model

3) Jump to Surface mode when you want to add the final details.
In Surface mode use as much as you can Live Clay tools because they offer subdivision surface only where needed.
While you are in Surface mode and have already added the finest details, never go back to Voxel mode for that object,
but if you need to do some macro modification use Proxy Mode with Move/Pose tool.
("Menu Geometry -> Caching -> Toggle Proxy Mode" and "Menu Geometry -> Proxy Method -> Decimate 4X").


P.S. Just out of curiosity...did you get a look at First Official Contest Winners ?
(http://3dcoat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/19893-first-official-contest-winners/)

Best,

- Marco (mkdm)

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Hi Michael,

> I still have a little bit of hope to try and make an outer 3D edit frame that might retain some of those qualities

Sounds good...

Ciao!

- Marco (mkdm)

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Absolutely I understand.

Just thinking outloud here.. Of course the big winner in the Edit Frame is the fact it's pretty much out of the way and for the most part modeless (on when something is selected and different modes when you engage different modifier keys).

My current best thinking is that it may get somewhat confusing in 3D space-- how to combine scaling (1D,2D and 3D), rotation (plus rotation lock increments), and translation (again 1D,2D and 3D) in one set of controls which is intuitive to use in a edit frame type gizmo. Not to mention having to switch between local and global axis modes. And, one of the hassles of the current 2D Edit Frame is it's difficulty in scaling in one direction orthogonally. Too often it just snaps out of the orthogonal mode and into full scale, which doesn't happen with a Gizmo.

I can see how creating a Gizmo could be quite the task, plus how it will automatically 'get in the way' with the current display. Maybe holding down a modifier key will toggle between Edit Frame (orthogonal view, NONE 3d view) and a Gizmo view in all views.

I've also seen a small gizmo mode icon show up outside the bounding box of the selected object. This can toggle between different gizmo configs: rotate, scale, translate. Perhaps an option but yet introduces even more modes.

Still, fwiw, I think once you add groups and instances and hierarchies, the current system will have to change.

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Thanks for that write up Marco. I actually did try and use some features (like Extrude) in Surface mode and really didn't see much difference. It sounds like using Live Clay in S mode is the secret. I'll have to go back and try again.

Yes, I did take a fast look (on my iPhone) of both the PBR shaders and the contest winners and runners up. While *very* nice, I noticed most didn't have close ups of hard models, which is of course a worse case scenario for topology modelers. The car model was nice but I couldn't get close enough to see it. Plus, the workflow for a car model must be something short of horrendous in 3D Coat-- unless you have mad sculpting skills and a wacom-- neither which I have or intend to have.

Keep in mind, just like MoI, I'm looking for quick 'get in' and 'get out', which is why I like MoI and SketchUp. I can literally go months without using either one and jump back in pretty much where I left off. I'd like to be able to do the same in 3D Coat as it 'fills' a hole in my 3D arsenal.

BTW, as long as you're giving tips, how would you add the flex hose pattern to a hose object created with curve as in this picture. (I know, it's easy to do with flow in MoI!) Also, how does one create 'glass' in PBR?

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Hi chippwalters,

and good morning.

1) > I'd like to be able to do the same in 3D Coat as it 'fills' a hole in my 3D arsenal.

For me too 3D-Coat is the "missing link" between Nurbs (Moi/Rhino) and Poly/SDS (Rocket3F/NVIL).

2) > unless you have mad sculpting skills and a wacom-- neither which I have or intend to have.

If you want to easily work with sculpting software, for some situations a Wacom it's necessary.
I can suggest you the "Wacom Intuos Pro Medium". An excellent product with very good cost/benefit ratio.
I often use it and it's a big time saver.

3) > BTW, as long as you're giving tips, how would you add the flex hose pattern to a hose object created with curve as in this picture. (I know, it's easy to do with flow in MoI!)

Here's a simple tut the I have made for you and it's about the Spline tool.
The example is very coarse and easy, but with the right time it's possible to do sharper and polished models.

http://take.ms/LAWNw

I suggest you to do it in Voxel mode and eventually, if you want, you can further transform the object to Surface mode.
Splines works well also in Surface mode but are much, much more heavy and time consuming because
drawing with Spline tool involves boolean operations, that are very heavy in Surface mode.

4) Also, how does one create 'glass' in PBR?

As I wrote some times ago one of the actual features that PBR in 3D-Coat misses it's just materials with Transparency/Refraction Index.
At Pilgway they are working on it.

But there's someone very skilled that has created a bunch of smart materials that simulates glass and transparency.
Look at http://3dcoat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18542-smart-material-procedural/
( buy at https://gumroad.com/michaelgdrs)

Have a nice day,

- Marco (mkdm).

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Hi Marco,

GREAT tutorial. Thanks. I was able to follow along and replicate quickly. I'll keep that in mind.
I tried a Wacom years ago and it didn't suit me. I prefer a direct drawing approach at this time (and I do so on my iPad Pro with Pencil). Thanks though for the suggestion.

Yes, I did see the glass textures from this same link you sent previously. I wonder how they do it? Any ideas?

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Great stuff -- Thank you -- !!

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Hi chippwalters,

You are welcome!

> Yes, I did see the glass textures from this same link you sent previously. I wonder how they do it? Any ideas?

Hmmm....no, no idea right now.

My texturing/painting skill is yet very coarse because I'm focusing mostly on modelling.

I can only say that all those stuff was made by a certain "MICHAEL BITSAKIS Lead 3D Artist , Render Expert at Instant Light PBR Renderer",
and looking at his catalog (https://www.artstation.com/artist/michaelgdrs) I think that he is a very skilled man in texturing and rendering :)

Let's take a look at these pages for a better understanding of its products (including 3D-Coat PBR materials) :

1) Whole catalog : https://www.artstation.com/artist/michaelgdrs
2) 3D-Coat smart materials FAKE SSS GLASS : https://www.artstation.com/artwork/41nm8
3) Page on 3D-Coat forum : http://3dcoat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/18542-smart-material-procedural/

P.S. It seems that this upcoming realtime renderer "Instant Light PBR Renderer" it's very promising.
Reading the article at http://www.instantlightrt.com/try-buy.html, this renderer will be a perfect companion for 3D-Coat.
In the article we can read :
"Plugins / Presets for your favourite paint software (3D-Coat).
Officially on next Beta release of 3D Coat
​(Paint room -- Export Objects and Textures -- Instant Light )"

PUBLIC BETA ETA ​DECEMBER 25 2016

I'll buy with the preorder (50% off) : http://www.instantlightrt.com/try-buy.html


Have a nice day and see you,

- Marco (mkdm)

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Hi TyRuben,

You are welcome!

- Marco (mkdm)

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