Full Version: Death of SUB-D Artist)! (Closed)

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Hi M-dynamics,

Cad loader and Subd-Nurbs are 2 different beast :

Cad loader let you import cad data into modo (igs, step, parasolid stuff)
Integrityware Power SubD-Nurbs let you export sub-d from Modo into nurbs format (igs, step, rhino I guess)

I use none of them.

Cad loader meshing is terrible compared to what MoI can produce. During the beta phase I didnt get a single good import from MoI models (using step or igs). It's not a true ngones mesher either. For me it was useless.

Power Sub-D surface get some trouble with pole aera (high valence vertex). While not perfect, T-Spline gives much better result.
Maybe some progress has be done since (again I'm talking about beta version)

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BurrMan,

I say "your wrong" only if you are wrong. Let me see my "false statements" pleas.

You still do not answer my question:
2. So any way if it is true sub-d modeler is it possible to import obj of any complexity without modification like retopology and modify them ?

>Michael, it's neat that NURBS have the underlying surface that can be recovered, however, as mentioned with the "Commit" becomes destructive, the translation of MoI's surfaces to other apps, will result in "Shrinking the trimmed surfaces", which would destroy the original intent and construction, and require further "special techniques" to do any type of repair.

If we are talking about Groboto, yes process are not destructive since it is inside it. But Groboto is not fully featured modeler that allows you to make serious projects. And you have to export obj, to finish it in Sub-D modeler like MODO.
Moi opposite is fully featured modeler that allows to make very complex projects. So no need to "Commit" at all... Every time you can change everything inside MOI and then re-export it. I work this way no problems at all...

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<< groboto : But Groboto is not fully featured modeler that allows you to make serious projects.

Yes you can but it's a very hard way!

It's exactly the same way of sculpting of the old Bryce! Except of course of all the functions automatic "Bot" ! :)
Bryce 7 Pro is less than 20 $ ;) Who has also a very special UI ;)


http://www.daz3d.com/products/bryce/bryce-what-is-bryce



With Groboto By Darrel Anderson


Some "bots"

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Hi Burr,

> the translation of MoI's surfaces to other apps, will result in "Shrinking the trimmed surfaces"

That only happens with SAT format export, as a side effect from splitting closed surfaces. It's something that you can turn off, if you go in moi.ini and set:

[SAT]
ExportSplitClosedSurfaces=n


It defaults to splitting turned on because I originally added SAT format for transfer into Revit and it did not like to handle closed surfaces in there.

- Michael

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"""""""You still do not answer my question:
2. So any way if it is true sub-d modeler is it possible to import obj of any complexity without modification like retopology and modify them ?""""""

Your definition of a "true" sub-d modeler, is false...

"""""If we are talking about Groboto, yes process are not destructive since it is inside it. But Groboto is not fully featured modeler that allows you to make serious projects. And you have to export obj, to finish it in Sub-D modeler like MODO. """"""

We are talking about Braid art in Modo..... And by the way, You keep refering to "serious projects".. What is that?

""""""Moi opposite is fully featured modeler that allows to make very complex projects. So no need to "Commit" at all... Every time you can change everything inside MOI and then re-export it. I work this way no problems at all...""""""""""

You cannot take your MoI model into Sub-d and go to town, Without further work. You are incorrect.

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Ah, but Frenchy... You're just "playing around"... Your not a real modeler like Andrei!

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Hi Michael,
Yeah, with roundtripping in MoI, and possibly others, but it also happens in other formats, like Iges, with another app I have the uses integrityware translators... It just depends on how apps are handeling things.....

It's not always so black and white.....

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Hi Burr, even if another app automatically applies shrinking (which if it's important to you maybe you can ask them to have a setting to turn it off), that will only affect the outer boundary. Any interior holes of the surface will always have the full underlying surface under them since shrinking only goes down to the outer boundary.

Also the outer boundary will only get shrunk down to an isoparm cut, something like a saw tooth cut like my example above will still be restorable to an even non-sawtooth boundary edge even if shrinking has been applied.

So anyway, even if shrinking is applied it does not totally negate the ability to recover areas of the surface.

- Michael

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There is some level of untrimming available, but you cant recover the surfaces from this fillet:



And just "re-fillet". It would require rebuilding the part, re-creating the boolean, then re-doing the fillet..... Just like other scenario's in other workflow's....

"""""""" (which if it's important to you maybe you can ask them to have a setting to turn it off)"""""""""""

Nah, it's ok... I can manage it......

Image Attachments:
surface_recover.jpg 

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Hi Burr,

> There is some level of untrimming available, but you cant recover the surfaces from this fillet:

You can recover the entire surface on the piece on the left even if shrinking has been applied. If shrinking has been applied you can still recover a full cylinder surface for the piece on the right and that makes rebuilding the original result much easier since you can extend the cylinder surface just by editing its length or by stretching it.

Being able to recover big pieces of underlying geometry makes it a lot easier to do the reconstruction step, in your case here you basically don't have to do any drawing to create new parts, you've got a bunch of existing pieces that you can use.

- Michael

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"""""""You can recover the entire surface on the piece on the left even if shrinking has been applied. If shrinking has been applied you can still recover a full cylinder surface for the piece on the right """"""""

Yup, and you cant recover any of it in 3dcoat! So, apparently, the originating application is not "useless"............ Like, the all quad output and specialty seam falloff tools from boolean operations in the Braid Art tools!

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> Your definition of a "true" sub-d modeler, is false...

Why?

I think true sub-d modeller at least must have import/export obj... Is it false??????

You steel do not answer my question, if Groboto can import obj....
Or is it possible for Braid art in Modo to modify any plygonal objects??

Why you do not answer this question? I asked 3 times already.... I think becouse answer is - NO.

>We are talking about Braid art in Modo..... And by the way, You keep refering to "serious projects".. What is that?

We are talking about soft that nobody tested here?

And this is some examples of sireous projects:

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=6028.1

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=5884.1

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=5939.1

Now show me what you made with Groboto or Braid art in Modo(that was not released yet)???


>You cannot take your MoI model into Sub-d and go to town, Without further work. You are incorrect.

Why I have to do this? I never made this thing. I can model everything I need in MOI...
But you can not model everything you need inside Groboto or with Braid art in Modo you will have to "Commit"... When you will understand it ?? :)

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"""""""""""> Your definition of a "true" sub-d modeler, is false...

Why?

""""IIIIIIII""""""""""""""" think true sub-d modeller at least must have import/export obj... Is it false??????"""""""""""""

Apparently, "YOUR" definition is all that matter? That's why.

"""""""You steel do not answer my question, if Groboto can import obj....
Or is it possible for Braid art in Modo to modify any plygonal objects??"""""""""""

Well, this is completely irrelevant. Groboto works with it's own type of object. But "For you" that makes it irrelevant, unusable, or somehow "untrue" to what it's doing. I mean, MoI works with it's own type of objects. They also need to be "commited" to enter other types of workflows. So you just don't make any sense with that.

"""""We are talking about soft that nobody tested here?""""

Is that your best guess? Your wrong. As a matter of fact, there is a partnership in the works with one of the worlds leading poly modelers.

""""""""""And this is some examples of sireous projects:"""""""""

Well, I think it's interesting you keep referring to Models made with MoI. Models from Google searches which produce results made by other users here like "PaQ", who could make those models in ANY application....

As a matter of fact, You should go look at the tutorials provided by the maker of MoI. If this was a few years ago, you would look at MoI and google a few other app galleries and state "Just look at the "Childs play" results of the app. Only now, you show the results of the people you are debating.

You don't think your simple cylinder object can be made in Groboto? Oh no, that's right, You'll come back with more challenge/attacks, and then claim how you can do that with "LOFT".... But then I'll make a "bot" out of your object, then perform a Groboto Design with it and say, Let's see you do that in ANY OTHER APP? ANd you'll respond how? And, What was the point again?

""""Why I have to do this? I never made this thing. I can model everything I need in MOI..."""""""

No, You've already stated you take it into 3dcoat, and to do that, you have to "commit" it... Same thing.....When will "you" understand this?

Apparently, the same thing you harp on doesn't apply to you? Oh yeah, that's because YOU and what matters to YOU, is all that matters to YOU. If it's doesn't matter to you, then it's wrong.

[EDIT] I just went to the MoI links you just posted. Looks like they are all links to "YOUR" models.. Wow. So, why are THOSE "Serious models"? I mean, what makes you think that there is anything "better" about any of your models, than say, My "Football" in the gallery. Is it some type of personal preference? Apparently, you are a "Real modeler", and others should just watch and listen??? I get it Andrei. You think your the man.

That's pretty arrogant of you to post pictures of your work, calling it "serious work", compared to somebody else's.... What's your criteria? Some would use "money" as a criteria for what "serious work" is.....What is YOUR criteria?

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Ok guys, this is starting to devolve into a flame war here...

- Michael

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BurrMan,

>Apparently, "YOUR" definition is all that matter? That's why.

I said- "at least"..... read carefully..... groboto and this plugin do not have this critical must have feature for any sub-d modeler.
what we are talking about? a?

>groboto works with it's own type of object
after that you say that groboto is polygonal modeller? a?


>is that your best guess? your wrong. as a matter of fact, there is a partnership in the works with one of the worlds leading poly modelers.
you tried it yourself or anybody here?


>no, you've already stated you take it into 3dcoat, and to do that, you have to "commit" it... same thing.....when will "you" understand this?
I do not use 3d-coat for modelling! I use it for retopology, UVs unwrap and painting!

Sorry but I can not talk with you any more. I waste my time trying to make you understand some basics.

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"""""""Sorry but I can not talk with you any more. I waste my time trying to make you understand some basics""""""""""""

There is really nothing you can help me with Andrei. Your perspective is SO LIMITED, you don't even understand the fundamentals of the process.

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Image Attachments:
cat-box-infinite-loop-wat[1].gif 

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< if Groboto can import obj
I don't believe it can!
Manual page 6
"There is not polygon or tools for edit polygon in Groboto
(except possibility to smooth or Stylise those created by the Mesher itself ! "

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Pilou hope BurrMan hear you :) He still think that Groboto is polygonal modeler.

I just made some research, and find what team of Groboto says:

GroBoto's Solids/Boolean engine is entirely ours. Importantly it is not a polygonal system - it uses true analytical geometry.
...actually a big deal, because we can handle subtle intersections, complexity, coincident surfaces, and a bunch of other stuff that any poly-based system would choke on... Real-Time, absolutely clean, precise, fully shaded work-mode rendering.

I don't want to launch into a pitch here (I'm GroBoto's creator & one of it's developers - 'tho the other side of my brain knows I'm really an artist).

The GroBoto Site will give you a better idea of what it's about.

Best Wishes,
Darrel

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If it is still not argument for BurrMan, I think nothing can help him :)
Just to mention as Darrel says: "Importantly it is not a polygonal system - it uses true analytical geometry."

You can read full thread here:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-222865.html

Darrel says very clear what is Groboto and how it differs from polygonal modeling and NURBS.

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"He still think that Groboto is polygonal modeler."

This is why you're so frustrating to talk to. He NEVER said that - he pointed out that Groboto, like MoI, exports to polygonal formats. Putting words into people's mouths to score points will not win you any friends.

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