Full Version: Moi and Ubuntu

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Hi David,

> Then, there are nothing I can do. :-(

You can try removing your current proprietary driver and instead installing an older version of it - that could possibly avoid whatever glitch is happening in your current version.

- Michael

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Fascinating thread. I left Ubuntu some time ago because no CAD software worked on it. Hopefully this has changed. I am downloading 11.10 as we speak...

Excited...

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Incidentally, what winetricks will I need?

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Hi bigseb - for MoI v3 you don't need any winetricks installed at all, you just need a good enough video driver, that seems to be the biggest potential obstacle.

- Michael

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Dear Michael,

finally I got the time to compile wine on my MacBook (running OSX 10.6.8). Using the osxwinebuilder script turned out pretty straight forward, nice tool that is. I got a Wine 1.3.32 out of it based on the recent XQuartz 2.7.0 as X11 server. Then I used the winetricks d3d9x_43, gdiplus and ie8 as suggested by Roger.

When I start the Moi trial I can see some of the tool icons for the fraction of a second but then everything disappears again... similar than with my previous tests on a DELL notebook running Debian Linux.

I have attached the trace, perhaps you can conclude something that helps.

Thank you very much for your time,
Chyman

Attachments:
wdbg.txt

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Hi Chyman, thanks for testing with Wine on OSX! I've actually been testing with it recently myself and I found that the method that Wine uses for rendering Direct3D content into child windows does not work properly on OSX - that's why the regular MoI build does not work properly.

But it looks like I will probably be able to make a few minor adjustments to how MoI sets up its 3D viewports to avoid this problem, I should know more details within the next week or so for if that is going to work well or not.

- Michael

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Thank you, Michael, this sounds very promising.
I am looking forward to that very much!

Thanks again,
Chyman

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Dear Michael,

I also had a quick test of Moi in a WinXP Pro 64 VM under VMware Player 3.1.4 on my Ubuntu 11.04 laptop today. There I got a strange effect in the Split view: The 4 views always showed identical content like all 4 were Top view or all 4 were 3D view and so on... flipping over on mouse moves, see attached screen-shot.
I don't know if that is of any help, just meant to share it with you in case...

Kind greetings,
Chyman

Image Attachments:
moi-vm.png 

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Hi Chyman - that's almost certainly a bug in VMWare Player's Direct3D system.

In order to conserve video memory MoI normally only actually uses a single swapchain for the split view and redirects it as needed to the current viewport that's being drawn at that moment. That's totally supported by the real Direct3D system but it seems that Wine's Direct3D layer doesn't like to render a swapchain to different windows like that and sort of wants to lock each swapchain down to only being displayed in a single window.

I've been doing some work recently to make an option to use a separate swapchain for each individual viewport window instead of only using a single one which should help to avoid this bug.

- Michael

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Hi Michael,

thank you for giving a detailed explanation. The VMWare Player was just a quick side test, I would rather prefer a Wine solution than a VM one.

I have posted my Wine problem also on the WineHQ forum since it behaves the same with a simple OpenGL test (qtgears.exe):
http://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?t=12426&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Perhaps we are lucky and there are enhancements for how Wine's OpenGL and XQuartz interact...
Chyman

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Hi Chyman,

> I have posted my Wine problem also on the WineHQ forum
> since it behaves the same with a simple OpenGL test
> (qtgears.exe):

Do you know if that program renders its OpenGL content into a child window instead of directly into a top level window?

Because it's that "render to child window" code path in Wine that seems to not function properly on OSX - it seems to need some particular kind of OpenGL extension that Apple does not happen to implement.


> Perhaps we are lucky and there are enhancements for
> how Wine's OpenGL and XQuartz interact...

For MoI's case I don't think any enhancements will be needed, because it looks like I'm going to be able to make a few pretty small modifications to how MoI's viewports are structured so that they will get a regular X window associated with each one and will then avoid the bad render-to-child-window code path that does not work under OSX.

That also combined with another slight modification to have a separate swapchain for each window instead of trying to share a single one seems to pretty much avoid the Direct3D/OpenGL problems entirely.

There only seem to be a few little remaining glitches in some of the UI to still clear up.

- Michael

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Hi Michael,

the qtgears.exe is available from http://lab.bachem-it.com/opengl/qtgears
It is based on mesa's glxgears and also provides the source code there. Unfortunately I am not fluent enough in C++ to tell, sorry...

If you happen to know a simple Wine Direct3D/OpenGL application that renders into a regular X window I could probably make a test from the "other side"...

Which versions of Wine and XQuartz/X11 have you been testing with? What type of Mac and OS X version are you running on, if I may ask?

Thank you for all those efforts!
Chyman

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Hi Chyman - I took a look at qtgears.exe using a window examination utility and the render window is indeed a child window - the menu bar, render area and bottom status bar are all separate child windows.

So most likely it is that whole issue with OpenGL rendering into child windows not working correctly with Wine under OSX that is causing qtgears.exe from not working right.


> If you happen to know a simple Wine Direct3D/OpenGL
> application that renders into a regular X window I could
> probably make a test from the "other side"...

I've attached a sample program from the Direct3D9 SDK - because it renders directly to a top level window and not into a child window you will probably find that it works ok, unless you have an old version of Wine maybe.


> Which versions of Wine and XQuartz/X11 have you been
> testing with?

Wine version is 1.3.32. XQuartz version is whatever version comes with Wineskin, I think it's a slightly older and slightly modified version of XQuartz.

The part that's good about using Wineskin is that it puts all of Wine, XQuartz and the app itself all together into one self-contained application bundle that can be run directly like a regular OSX app, so it avoids any need to set up Wine or XQuartz separately. Being based off of this should help for stability quite a bit because I won't have to deal with variations in Wine or XQuartz.


> What type of Mac and OS X version are you running on, if I may ask?

I'm on a current generation Mac Mini using OSX 10.7 Lion. This stuff should work on OSX 10.6 as well but I don't think it is going to work on 10.5 or earlier.

- Michael

Attachments:
HDRCubeMap.zip

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Hi Michael,

thank you for examining the qtgears.exe, so that explains why it behaves very similar to MoI although it's GUI is so much simpler.

Thank you also for providing a sample program from the Direct3D9 SDK, I tried to run it but got a "Could not find any compatible Direct3D devices." message shortly after all pixel formats have been queried. Not sure what is going wrong this time... I am using Wine version 1.3.32 too... perhaps the Intel GMA X3100 hardware is a problem...

Your description of Wineskin sounds a bit like Winebottler you mentioned previously, that bundling is indeed of advantage for creating a defined environment, I will have a closer look at it.

Many thanks,
Chyman

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Hi Chyman,

> Not sure what is going wrong this time... I am using
> Wine version 1.3.32 too... perhaps the Intel GMA X3100
> hardware is a problem..

Hmm, I hope that doesn't mean that MoI won't work on the GMA X3100 as well - the mac mini I'm testing with has a Radeon HD 6630M which seems to be working well.

Could you try the attached sample program and see if that one has the same problem too?


> Your description of Wineskin sounds a bit like Winebottler you
> mentioned previously, that bundling is indeed of advantage for
> creating a defined environment, I will have a closer look at it.

Yeah, it's the same kind of thing as Winebottler, but it seems like Winebottler has not had much activity around it for the past year or so, while Wineskin is quite active with the developer supporting it with a forum and updating it frequently.

- Michael

Attachments:
Text3D.zip

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Hi Michael,

thanks for the Text3D sample, that seems to get further than the previous one and now states: "Could not find required media. Ensure that the DirectX SDK is correctly installed." Perhaps it is just missing a Font...

Maybe I try to install the complete SDK fom MS, though that is 227 MB...

So we don't give up on the GMA X3100 too quickly... ;)
Chyman

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Hi Chyman, yeah that sounds like some kind of supporting materials missing, so maybe not too bad.

It doesn't look like it will take too much longer before I can have a MoI version for you to test with, maybe something like a few more days or possibly a week.

- Michael

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Wow, that would be super kind to have a MoI demo for Wine to test with!

I went ahead and installed the Microsoft DirectX 9.0 SDK (Summer 2004) in Wine and continued some testing. Starting the Text3D.exe now results in a backtrace:

wine: Unhandled page fault on read access to 0x00c66c7c at address 0x430ddf2b (thread 0009), starting debugger...
Unhandled exception: page fault on read access to 0x00c66c7c in 32-bit code (0x430ddf2b).
...
Backtrace:
=>0 0x430ddf2b _xrenderdrv_ExtTextOut+0x95b() in winex11 (0x0032f708)
1 0x4282ef38 _ExtTextOutW+0xeb7() in gdi32 (0x0032f958)
2 0x0102ff13 in text3d (+0x2ff12) (0x0032f9bc)
3 0x01030980 in text3d (+0x3097f) (0x0032fa84)
4 0x01031de8 in text3d (+0x31de7) (0x0032faac)
5 0x0101f4e8 in text3d (+0x1f4e7) (0x0032fc30)
6 0x0107e657 in text3d (+0x7e656) (0x0032fd44)
7 0x0107fbc3 in text3d (+0x7fbc2) (0x0032fd78)
8 0x0101fe65 in text3d (+0x1fe64) (0x0032feb0)
9 0x7b84ebbc _call_process_entry+0xb() in kernel32 (0x0032fec8)
10 0x7b851a77 _start_process+0x66() in kernel32 (0x0032ff08)
11 0x7bc65d8c _call_thread_func_wrapper+0xb() in ntdll (0x0032ff28)
12 0x7bc66e8a _call_thread_func+0x89() in ntdll (0x0032ffa8)
13 0x7bc65d52 _call_thread_entry_point+0x11() in ntdll (0x0032ffc8)
14 0x7bc3f39e _start_process+0x1d() in ntdll (0x0032ffe8)
…

But I also tried the SkinnedMesh.exe and the StateManager.exe and both ran fine! I think they are much closer to MoI's needs with displaying meshes. So I think basic 3D functionality via Wine/DX9 is supported on the GMA X3100 hardware. The rest I hope is just tuning registry and dlls…

Will have a closer look at Wineskin today.

Looking forward happily,
Chyman

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I'm not too keen on 11.10. Would MoI also work on an earlier version, say, 10.10 or 10.04? Just use the latest Wine. What about Mint and Puppy? Or even Kubuntu? Would they work?

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Hi Sebastian,

> Would MoI also work on an earlier version, say, 10.10 or
> 10.04? Just use the latest Wine.

Yes, that should work fine, just as long as you can get a good video driver installed.

Getting a reliable and non-buggy video driver running seems to be the biggest barrier to getting things working on Linux.


> What about Mint and Puppy? Or even Kubuntu? Would they work?

I've tested with Mint over here and got it to work.

Again though the major obstacle is getting a good video driver set up.

- Michael

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