Full Version: Hidden line removal progress

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Hi Michael,

>Is the Astute Graphics stuff running as a plug-in inside of Illustrator?

If so then probably Adobe does make that stuff accessible through functions that a plug-in can call, but that kind of mechanism would only work for a plug-in that runs inside of Illustrator, not a completely separate program that's trying to communicate to Illustrator only by writing a file out.

Yes it does, good point! This also carries the negative aspect of requiring updates of plug-ins for new versions of Illustrator. On and on it goes, and where it stops, only Marketing knows. :/

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hi all

FYI Isodraw does this tapered line style on holes. Its nice but for me unnecessary as its overkill. It is alo done with a fill shape which no longer matches the corresponding line widths if the drawing is scaled without scale line widths setting on. Attachment shows the taper in outline mode and preview.

Image Attachments:
Screen Shot 2013-10-01 at 7.57.07 AM.png  Screen Shot 2013-10-01 at 7.57.13 AM.png 

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Hi Michael,

if others agree would it be possible to put each line type on a seperate layer so that there get five layers exported:

Layer 1 (bottom layer): The shading as a bitmap

Layer 2: The complete object with all visible lines. All lines with a thin stroke

Layer 3: All hidden lines, very thin and dashed

Layer 4: All lines where the surface normals differ (One pointing away from the viewer and one pointing towards the viewer). These lines have a stroke width of 3 times of the ones of layer 2

Layer 5 (top most layer): All outlines where an edge "touches" the background. 3x stroke, round cap, maybe different color

This would result in a very uncluttered export and allow to switch line types on and off easily and also alows to rearrange layers like putting the outline layer to the bottom.

Is that maybe what you have currently in mind?

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hi

in response to martin 3d, i am not too bothered by having the layers option. However, different subassemblies/groups/items within the model on different layers would be useful to me. . .
I guess micheal has opened pandoras box with this latest trick :-) Obviously a lot of people out there are still working with 2D vector as well as 3D.
matt

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Hi Martin,

> Is that maybe what you have currently in mind?

Well, sort of - but one problem with doing it exactly as you've described there is that imposes a totally new layer structure on the drawing, destroying the current layer/style organization that's already in place.

What you have listed as Layer 2:
> Layer 2: The complete object with all visible lines. All lines with a thin stroke

I'd think maybe would be more like "use the object's current style assignment as the exported layer". That would be sort of the default behavior I would think, basically same as how PDF/AI export already works in the current v3 beta, that generates layer assignments in the AI or PDF file based on the style assignments in MoI.

Then for these different kinds of categories I'd think that there would be options you could enable to override that default "layer from style" behavior, something like set a checkbox option to branch off hidden lines, silhouettes, and outlines to either different layers, or just to have different line weights or maybe colors.

Something vaguely like this (where a [ ] is a checkbox):

Separate out:
[ ] Silhouettes : [ ] to layer: [ ] line weight:
[ ] Outlines : [ ] to layer: [ ] line weight:
[ ] Hidden lines : [ ] to layer: [ ] line weight:


So I'd think that normally it would be doing all visible lines with a thin stroke and those would all go on the same layer as their current style assignment. If you want silhouettes to be accented and have some different kind of categorization than that regular behavior then you'd check that option for it, etc...


- Michael

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One use of the outline layer could be making the outline white when the drawing is shown on a dark background like so:

Image Attachments:
White outline.png 

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Separate out:
[ ] Silhouettes : [ ] to layer: [ ] line weight:
[ ] Outlines : [ ] to layer: [ ] line weight:
[ ] Hidden lines : [ ] to layer: [ ] line weight:


Perfect!!!

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Hi Matt,

> However, different subassemblies/groups/items within the model on
> different layers would be useful to me. . .

Yeah this would be I'd think the default behavior of generating layer output based on style assignments in MoI.

If I understand what you would need correctly, being able to assign pretty much any unique property like a certain color or line width to a particular kind of edge would then let you target those ok while still keeping layers separate, is that right?

And I think some people would prefer to have those things go to their own layer so it would be good to have an option for that I think.

I'm not exactly a huge fan of copious complex options on things but I think in this case different people will want to have different kinds of organizations.

- Michael

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So Moi becomes more a prog of presentation than a modeler tool ? ;)
Dimensions are also very asked! :)

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Hi Pilou,

> So Moi becomes more a prog of presentation than a modeler tool ? ;)

It's just another way to be able to make good use of your models!

Certain kinds of 2D drawings are actually quicker to create by 3D model construction, this should help with things like that.

It is also a kind of long term goal for MoI to incorporate some kinds of "design communication" tools as well in addition to being able to create it in the first place.


> Dimensions are also very asked! :)

Yup, I do want to add those in eventually as well. But the hidden line drawing generation itself takes priority, because dimensions without hidden lines are not very useful, but if you can generate a hidden line drawing there are quite a few different 2D CAD programs out there that should work pretty well for putting dimensions on a DXF drawing.


- Michael

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Dimensions would be the holy grail for me

Because for now I need to export everything to Rhino (which is running on a PC far from where I am in the agency)

So when you have 35 different models to put dimensions on and when every single one get multiple modifications asked by the client...

You start to pull your hair out haha

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Hello,
Dimensions and comunication design tools are far more important - in my opinion concerning the impact it could have on my workflow - than line weights / line styles, overkill export options and rendered background image.
Have ViaCAD and i open it once or twice.
Naturaly other workflows have other needs and prioritys.
Hoping for 2D comunication tools in Moi3D 'style': Simple and efective.
Cheers
Carlos

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Hi DesuDeus,

> Because for now I need to export everything to Rhino (which is running on a PC far from where I am in the agency)

You're on a Mac, right? Why not use the Rhino Mac beta and just put that on your same machine?

- Michael

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Hello,

I'm very happy just to get hidden line removal, if you don't have something like ISODraw you can create some slick illustrations with clean export, AI and some Astute Graphics plugins, particularly WidthScribe. If you aren't too concerned with widths CorelDraw also works great.

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And works very well with the astonished free

Expression 3 (creatures houses expresson) multilanguages
http://www.01net.com/telecharger/windows/Multimedia/creation_graphique/fiches/35072.html
and

XARA Xtrem 5
http://www.xara.com/eu/specialoffers/designer/

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>I'm very happy just to get hidden line removal

Me too!
But it would also be a huge help if I don't have to manually pick a lot of silhouette lines to generate a 2-line-weight illustration. Even more when it's not that hard to program. Michael asked questions specifically about it. So he sees a need for it. I'm confidend he will keep MoI simple. I'm currently using C4Ds Sketch & Toon. It's slow, complex and it's not vector. If I can do it with MoI and Illustrator...


>overkill export options

I agree it's overkill to set line weights on export. It's easy enough to do in Illustrator.
So something like this would be sufficient:

Separate out:
[ ] Silhouettes : [ ] to layer
[ ] Outlines : [ ] to layer
[ ] Hidden lines : [ ] to layer

or even simpler

Separate out:
[ ] Silhouettes
[ ] Outlines : [ ] to layer
[ ] Hidden lines

Just give Silhouettes and Outlines a thicker outline please so there is an instant impression.

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Hello,
I see Dimensions and 2D comunication tools in same way i love Moi3D's Polygon Mesher.
The Mesher is amazing and it is easy com 'comunicate' with polygon software or render engines.
The Dimensions and 2D comunication tools is the way we comunicate with clients and suppliers.
This are 2 ways to get work done OUT of Moi3D, without both Moi3D is an island.
Hope my POV is clear as my english sucks.
Cheers
Carlos

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Hi Carlos, I do eventually expect to have dimensions in MoI too, but I can't implement everything all at the same time...

There are a lot of various 2D CAD programs that can be used to put dimensions on a DXF file and print it out, so that's just a lower "pain point" right now than generating the 2D drawing in the first place. That's why the hidden line generation is an important step - it will help make it easier to have a dimensioned drawing produced since you'll be able to get a 2D drawing to mark up, and it should also help out a lot of people doing illustration type work as well.

Anyway, that's the reasoning behind having drawing generation first before implementing dimensions. I'm sorry if that prioritization does not match what you in particular need the most. Unfortunately it's not possible for me to match every single person's priorities all at the same time.

But just in general having hidden line drawing generation should be an important part of the 2D communication area.

- Michael

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Hello Michael,
I understand what your are saying and i agree with all.
Naturally i respect your decisions and the path you choose. You know what is easy/fast to implement and what isn't.
Also you know what is best for Moi3D future, based on client's feedback.
I just wanted to share my opinion that the last requests/opinions were more detail focus side on not base feature.
MOi3D's 2D tools are quite important for my workflow, and it was a subject to jump in.
I'm quite happy with hidden line removal, it will help me a lot. Thanks for that.
Sorry if it sound dry or not respectfull. My english/words doesn't sound the way i whish/aim for.
Cheers
Carlos

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No problem Carlos!

- Michael

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