Full Version: Michael's Plasticity rants

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The whole "CAD for artists" thing could just be marketing hype or a branding strategy, everyone makes their own business choices. That doesn't automatically make it untrue, though. The idea behind a "CAD for artists" is that, unlike traditional CAD software, it uses a direct modeling approach. I don't think the Plasticity developer ever claimed to have invented the concept of CAD for artists; he just said that's the direction he's aiming for according to his roadmap.

If the issue is that people keep emailing you to complain about another program, maybe you should just redirect their complaints to the right place and avoid taking on the stress of replying to folks dumping their grievances on you. After all, FreeCAD and Blender are complicated too, and don't get me started on gCAD3D, it has a terrible UI as well.

The fact that you're especially annoyed by Plasticity, but not by the hundreds of other apps out there, makes me think you might see it as a potential competitor. Otherwise, you'd be making long threads about tons of other programs too.

I'm not saying your points about certain flaws are wrong, but focusing on a few minor issues while ignoring everything else that's good about it feels like a gratuitous attack.

There are plenty of programs that people around here don't like, Blender and FreeCAD especially, but that doesn't mean they're bad applications.

I hope in the future the competition focuses on the features offered, rather than pointing out the flaws in everyone else's software.

Greetings.

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There was a "cube" snap anchor long time ago (2y ?), a bit like in MoI, that feature vanished at one point and never went back (I haven't checked recent build). I wouldn't be surprised if there an alternative hidden key combo to create cubes, not sure tho.

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""""""""""The fact that you're especially annoyed by Plasticity, but not by the hundreds of other apps out there, makes me think you might see it as a potential competitor. Otherwise, you'd be making long threads about tons of other programs too.""""""""""

I dont see any posts from hundreds of others software's being done in this forum here which belongs to Michael and MoI.... So Maybe you dont know how to read and interpret facts...

Lots of people singing the hype song though......

Maybe the guy who is proud of his accomplishments with regard to UX and maybe has a bad taste from others who RUINED his previous work, is pointing a few things out!

you were allowed to make your point. Starting to look a little like a dick now....

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Hahaha, the ever-so mild-mannered Michael shows his teeth. I like it! Keep going!

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Hi Metin,

re:
> Hahaha, the ever-so mild-mannered Michael shows his teeth. I like it! Keep going!

Yes if you poke me enough times eventually I will get annoyed! :)

- Michael

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@ Burr,

re:
> and maybe has a bad taste from others who RUINED his previous work,

For the record, I don't consider Rhino to be ruined, it's following a trajectory that I put it on myself.

It was designed with a focus on being friendly to AutoCAD users, a very different target than MOI.

That was a good fit for RMA since their work up until then was focused on being an AutoCAD reseller.

When the time came for them to exit the AutoCAD business they were able to switch fully to Rhino and didn't have to totally reset to a completely foreign environment.

- Michael

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“”””” For the record, I don't consider Rhino to be ruined, it's following a trajectory that I put it on myself.”””””

Definitely different than what my understanding was….

So, noted.

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Hi pafurijaz

> The fact that you're especially annoyed by Plasticity, but not by the hundreds of other apps
> out there, makes me think you might see it as a potential competitor. Otherwise, you'd be
> making long threads about tons of other programs too.

Plasticity is the only one that started out by blatantly plagiarizing my work.

From 2006:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060810145302/http://moi3d.com/

"MoI (Moment of Inspiration) is a new 3D modeling/CAD program for designers and artists."


Or check out https://github.com/nkallen/elephant/releases/tag/v0.1-alpha where the entirety of MoI's UI and script commands were copied and forked as if it was an open source project.


> I'm not saying your points about certain flaws are wrong, but focusing on a few minor issues
> while ignoring everything else that's good about it feels like a gratuitous attack.

They are not minor issues!!!!!

That drawing a circle is gross is not a minor issue!

These are the things that make the UX, not having stylish looking icons.

Yet there are so many people who are like "Ooooo sweet looking icons, I like how they all look like the same indecipherable blobs of monochrome lumps. A+++++!! Oh geez look at those icons, not monochrome, lame."

There are plenty of places that cover the good stuff (which is primarily that it is cheap).

There is not much covering the bad stuff, people are somehow scared to write their opinions publicly if it differs from the "influencer" horde.

- Michael

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Hello,

Years ago I was having a chat with an industrial designer about, among other things, how a person knows if they've created a great product. We agreed... great products are copied. Not if, when. It's absolutely wrong, but it happens.

I think MoIs representation as a tool for artists doesn't accurately convey its capability. Is it one of the easiest to use and most intuitive design applications available, CAD or otherwise? Yes. For those doing a measured comparison between products and how efficiently you can model it's obvious, measured as a whole, MoI wins.

Here comes the criticism.

For someone doing a quick informational overview of both products, MoI loses hard. Why? Do an A/B comparison of the websites. Plasticity shows me what it can do, it really sells the product. Does the MoI site do that? In order to download the product you have to look at the site, you must create the correct impression from the first second. The test is easy, show someone who knows nothing about either company both websites and ask them their initial impression about the capability of the respective products. Don't be surprised when people think Plasticity is the more mature, more capable product.

Here are some ways to combat the wrong and reinforce the correct impression.

Website needs to be totally overhauled. 65% mobile, 35% desktop browser split, make it responsive so people can actually view your content easily on a phone screen. People read at most 20% of a site and of that only digest 5-7% of the content they read. Create brief, accurate statements that convey the greatest strengths of MoI. Here's an idea, show a few examples of products being designed end to end, digital asset, printed (additive) asset, machined (subtractive) asset. MoI has the content and capability for a long time now, you just have to tell the story. It's very difficult for hype and incorrect information to take hold when the accurate story is made available front and center.

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Un slogan du siècle dernier disait : sa qualité fait sa publicité!

A slogan from the last century said: its quality is its publicty!

;)

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I’m not so sure about that. A nice website might help increase the number of trial downloads, but converting those downloads into sales is more complicated than that. I don't think people will blindly buy software without evaluating the learning curve first, and I guess these days the first reflex is watching youtube content. (But ... it's not my field so). Sadly there isn't much recent content, and when there is, you always have a moron suggesting to use Plasticity.

For me, coming from MoI, the 'only' things that Plasticity do better is surfacing, and the Parasolid kernel makes fillet job insanely easy (the patch function is also very neat). Sure as Michael point out, we start to see scenario where ACIS shows his power too, but overall the simple conic mode is amazingly fast and permissive. But for almost everything else, I wish Plasticity was a real MoI clone, but obviously (and hopefully) it isn't.

For people coming from poly modeling, trying to make hard surface assets and the like, those "easy fillet" makes a whole difference compared to 'old (pre-ACIS)' MoI. I know for a fact it was always the friction point when I showcased MoI to co worker (game industry). Gosh those guys like round fillets everywhere like if everything was made with surface subdivision, even if they are work around like round edge shader.

That said I'm talking from a very niche industry, but looking at the thousands of guns posted in Plasticity discord, it does seems representative of the current usage ... (and usually the problematic part is when it's time to model the handle ...)

edit : that github clone is indeed pretty lame, looks like there is a good bunch of miss behaviour that generate this ranting thread !

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Hi OSTexo,

re:
> It's very difficult for hype and incorrect information to take hold when the accurate story
> is made available front and center.

I think you're right. It's generally a weak area for me. I have great disdain for marketing exaggerations, I like it when people investigate things directly themselves.

But that would be a good area for me to focus on sometime next year.

Thanks, - Michael

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jeez I usually have to fight to get a 5 lines of VEX (C) working in Houdini, but indeed those models generate .html like it's nothing.
(I just asked for a generic site for MOI3D :O))

Attachments:
moi.html

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Hello,

I doubt you're as weak in that area as you think you are. Apply the same UX/HID principles you use in designing MoI as designing your site. I've done UX/HID on physical and digital product for years and was always hesitant to do the web related stuff until I realized a great effective website is a simplified UX exercise.

You've already done the heavy lift, time to tell people about it.

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I actually like the MoI3d website. ESPECIALLY the forum. I pretty much browse it every day and follow and read through every thread (Except the spam of course)

On my desktop, phone and random devices through the day

If it was one of those "one page websites" like PaQ posted a sample of, I could never make heads or tails of what might be different or changing daily...

Ther site itself? It has all the info. Massive tutorials also. Gallery. And of course, leading into this forum where pretty much REAL TIME communication and Q&A with the actual developer... Priceless!

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For what it's worth, I think there is an underlying aspect at work here: the preference and philosophy of the user. Some are quieter and more reflective, some are harried and distracted (whether by choice or circumstances). I think it is challenging to engage both groups.

When I initially encountered MoI years back I thought the website was unique (maybe a bit quirky) compared to the rest of the web. My use-case was not a direct fit with where MoI was at the time, but with use I began to appreciate just how powerful a tool this was. Other than downloading betas and releases, I seldom look at the website.

Now the forum on the other hand, as Burr mentions, a daily visit to read all the threads. Simple (perhaps elegant) in its form, easy to quickly read and digest. In a way a bit like the better parts of a newsgroup or mailing list of days gone by, but with a simple web interface. I also appreciate that it seldom changes: get it right once and leave it alone which I suspect may be a principle that Michael uses.

All that said, I do think some attention to the website would be beneficial for getting MoI into more toolboxes.

--Larry

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I think MoI could be better 'advertised' in the gallery by showing more mechanical devices & models as well as some dimensioned drawings
I mention MoI on the Model Engineer website, which is usually when people over there are struggling with the complexities of their CAD in some way. What quite often happens then is they visit the gallery here and see lots of rendered models and return thinking Moi is only for artists. They assume it's beyond MoI's capabilities to be used in the workshop, which I assume is due to the paucity of suitable examples here. Meanwhile, I'm happily exporting DXFs to CAM and STLs for 3d printing while they're contending with constraints, assemblies and error messages in a model that doesn't warrant it.


Martin.

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I've been using Moi since version 2. I initially bought it because I read it had the best mesher bar none. I started to play with it and found it far easier to use than the cad software I had at the time (I was using turbocad, blender before it was open source and 3dsMax) I tell anybody who asks me about what software they should use that they should buy Moi. the last group of people I have been selling it to have been people in the house building world (I just finished building my house) as they ask what software I used to make my plans. My toolkit now is Moi and blender for modeling as I dropped 3dsmax when it went to subscription and dropped turbocad completely when moi was capable of dimensions and text. The BMOI import export makes moi and blender seamless.
Personally I don't care about the look of webpages and in this environment I'm not sure they matter as much as they used to. Maybe having a slick webpage helps sell a product but I think what others express about the software sells it more.
my two cents
Val

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aah.. what has Nick Kallen to do with elepant?! I tought it was made by Max Smirnov...

And i'am really suprised by your posts michael! I was thinking "is it him? or was his account hacked?"
I never expect that you could be this "harsh".
I love moi and i have also plasticity, Rhino 8, Alibe expert 26, Freecad, Blender, Cinema4D R18, Inventor (at work). but for my quick sketches, prototypes and analysing Step Files, i allways use moi.

Every product gets copied at some time... if its worth... often people try to make things "better". In this case, Nick asked Siemens for the Parasolid-Kernel.
this was smart... there are other tools like Shapr3d out there, who has done the same. But theyre to expensive with there subscribtion model.
Maybe he get most oft the ideas from Shapr3d? the filliet handler in both directions... most of the Shortcuts from blender.... what i like. i use blender before it was even free.

Years ago you wrote that an external Kernel would make Moi more expensive, you dont like to do it..
If Mr. Kallen had not done plasticity with Parasolid. I'am very shure, we don't had the new Acis features that are coming to Moi now.
So i think this move pushed you to do somethin similar.

And yes, i think a better Webseite would sell Moi better and maybe you need more infuencers. This is how thinks work today.
Give a few keys to good modellers and tell them they have to make content. A few good user were gone from MOI to Plasticity. ;-(

And Plasticity is no more a oneManShow like Moi. You doing everything by yourself. Maybe you know some people who like to help you conding?
At some Point, someone has to dictate the direction and others do the "work".
One Man cannot do it all alone... the UI, The Code, the Support. sometime i think you waste all your "coding-time" for giving support. (please dont stop this!)

What about a plugin-system that download modules/scripts, that other people made. like the elephat editor. This is a great tool. or all this other scripts.
This are also one of the strengths of Moi. People don't like to copy files and search for folders. I can do this. But younger people gettting dumber by AI.
I think moi is on a good way. But its harder with plasticity now. I definitely going to buy the V5 upgrade. This is maybe one of the last sofware that iam going to buy.
because its the one that i use the most. And the Support is better than any on other Software.

And Moi for ipad would be a dream ;-)
i know you will not do it... but.. maybe... if plasticty comes for ipad? *lol*

I wish you all a nice christmas-time. With your friends and families.

And stay healthy!!!!

sorry for they bad english...

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